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Started By
Message
Can someone explain this offense to me?
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:20 am
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:20 am
I get the pace part and like them pushing it up rather than walking it up and almost getting 8 second violations. But I don't like what I'm seeing of the space part. All of the play set up is happening on the perimeter. All of the picks are being set from the college 3 line or higher. When it works well enough to spring somebody they have a great attack path to the basket, so maybe if Tyreke were healthy he'd be averaging 30 and we'd all think Gentry was a genius, but I just rewatched the 2nd half and I saw a lot more plays giving results I'd like to never see again than thinking "we're really close to being good".
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation. The result most of the time was a guard taking a contested pull up or runner. AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket? This is what everyone's been complaining about, they just didn't know how to explain it. We don't want AD forcing post shots, but he doesn't belong 20 feet and higher the entire game either.
I think Tyreke might go nuts in this system, and Ryno seems to be getting some good shots and attack paths with it, but the Oopty Oop should be one formation in the playbook, not something you run every single time.
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation. The result most of the time was a guard taking a contested pull up or runner. AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket? This is what everyone's been complaining about, they just didn't know how to explain it. We don't want AD forcing post shots, but he doesn't belong 20 feet and higher the entire game either.
I think Tyreke might go nuts in this system, and Ryno seems to be getting some good shots and attack paths with it, but the Oopty Oop should be one formation in the playbook, not something you run every single time.
8
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:48 am to TigerinATL
System is predicated in super quick ball movement. Almost like a no dribble drill in practice. Works best with capable guards. The system is extremely limited with players like ish smith and toney douglas running the point. We are seeing a some what modified system due to the injuries.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 8:59 am to TigerinATL
Pels scored 120 against a great D. Also, Jrue is playing more. Defense looks like a bigger issue. No more excuses for the Pels in their next game. Gotta play well against ORL.
ETA that I agree with you re AD. Would like to see him a bit closer to the rim...
ETA that I agree with you re AD. Would like to see him a bit closer to the rim...
This post was edited on 11/1/15 at 9:22 am
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:40 am to TigerinATL
quote:
When it works well enough to spring somebody they have a great attack path to the basket, so maybe if Tyreke were healthy he'd be averaging 30
this is the problem
this system is heavily pg dependent and we have jack, shite, and a 50% jrue out there
if we could have lucked into acquiring a ramon sessions (pnr ace) this offseason, we'd be humming, but couldn't, so we're not
the fact that we don't have a point guard completely destroys any offensive system that we theoretically have
Posted on 11/1/15 at 9:51 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I get the pace part and like them pushing it up rather than walking it up and almost getting 8 second violations. But I don't like what I'm seeing of the space part. All of the play set up is happening on the perimeter. All of the picks are being set from the college 3 line or higher. When it works well enough to spring somebody they have a great attack path to the basket, so maybe if Tyreke were healthy he'd be averaging 30 and we'd all think Gentry was a genius, but I just rewatched the 2nd half and I saw a lot more plays giving results I'd like to never see again than thinking "we're really close to being good".
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation. The result most of the time was a guard taking a contested pull up or runner. AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket? This is what everyone's been complaining about, they just didn't know how to explain it. We don't want AD forcing post shots, but he doesn't belong 20 feet and higher the entire game either.
I think Tyreke might go nuts in this system, and Ryno seems to be getting some good shots and attack paths with it, but the Oopty Oop should be one formation in the playbook, not something you run every single time.
I should get you to repost my comment from the other thread and see if people will discuss it rationally.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 10:04 am to TigerinATL
Not trying to sunshine pump but the offense looked outstanding last night with Jrue in there. Unlike Douglas and Smith he can create his own shot which is a must in Gentry's offense. When Tyreke and Cole come back and when Asik is closer to 100% (he was barely getting off the floor last night) I expect things to change.
D is a different story but so far we have only played guard dominant offenses. Douglas played pretty tight D on Curry but it's not his fault the guy has a horseshoe up his arse.
D is a different story but so far we have only played guard dominant offenses. Douglas played pretty tight D on Curry but it's not his fault the guy has a horseshoe up his arse.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 1:25 pm to TigerinATL
I wouldn't mind running this offense every couple of possessions, but keeping all of your big men outside of the paint is unacceptable.
I was pretty excited to see Draymond Green bite on the AD pump-fake 3 pointer followed by the drive and slam. So I see the value in AD taking a few 3's each game. But he needs to be around the basket (or at least within 15 feet) on 75% of our possessions.
In the new offense, AD stands 3-4 ft behind the arc, waits for a touch from the point guard, and then sets a pick 35 feet from the basket. What's the point of that. He's not a threat out there.
And I hate seeing Perkins outside of the three point line on offense. It gets to me.
I was pretty excited to see Draymond Green bite on the AD pump-fake 3 pointer followed by the drive and slam. So I see the value in AD taking a few 3's each game. But he needs to be around the basket (or at least within 15 feet) on 75% of our possessions.
In the new offense, AD stands 3-4 ft behind the arc, waits for a touch from the point guard, and then sets a pick 35 feet from the basket. What's the point of that. He's not a threat out there.
And I hate seeing Perkins outside of the three point line on offense. It gets to me.
Posted on 11/1/15 at 2:12 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
I just rewatched the 2nd half and I saw a lot more plays giving results I'd like to never see again than thinking "we're really close to being good".
I would disagree based on what I saw. Certainly there were some wild shots. Douglas took some bad ones, even makes. Babbit was a little quick on some his shots too, but people were ready to say he's a better 3PT shooter than Anderson last year, so what is it now?
So here's the million $ question- is it personnel or design that are giving you the results you don't want? How many shots can you point out that were bad? How does that compare to previous years? I'll say this: bad shots aren't ever going to disappear from any offense.
quote:
If Gentry's "space" is based on the Oopty Oop formation and having everybody on the perimeter, I don't like it as a primary formation
Then you are SOL. The Pels don't have any players they can put on the block and run 4 out, 1 in stuff. Yes, many sets incorporate a Davis high ball screen. But, shite, that was a staple of Monty's offense too. Davis isn't there as a post player and more importantly as a passer out of the post. Dropping him on the block won't improve the offense IMO.
quote:
All of the play set up is happening on the perimeter. All of the picks are being set from the college 3 line or higher.
All is a bit egregious. Plenty of sets with bigs setting pin downs throughout the half. Again, I'm not sure what you want. More Horns? I do think it's fair to wonder about off ball action- to me, it could be better.
quote:
AD's best skill is he's an inhuman finisher in traffic and you're keeping him away from the basket?
Again, by design or not? For just one example, on the first play of the second half, Davis sets a high ball screen, rolls to the rim, is hit by Holiday, and is greeted as soon as he catches the ball just outside the restricted area by Asik's defender. From the short corner, Asik dives to the rim, but is cut off by a DC's defender. Cunningham, standing in the strong side corner, is literally all alone as his defender has crashed down on Asik. Davis can't find him and kicks it out to Holiday for a wild shot.
I saw much to like in terms of offense design in the 2nd half. Execution was not always there with guys standing around or taking questionable shots. But that takes time. And, obviously, better personnel will create better shots.
2 things worry me- the aforementioned off ball action and the lack of shots at the rim. Tough to say how much of that drop is due to Evans being out- he accounted for ~30% of the team's shots last year just from his own FGA, not sure how many he assisted. But it is not a great trend and it is something to keep an eye on.
This post was edited on 11/1/15 at 3:12 pm
Posted on 11/2/15 at 11:10 am to TigerinATL
I think it was telling that after giving up that many points Saturday, Gentry seemed more concerned with the offensive execution (even after scoring 120 on last year's best D). Based on what the players and coaches are saying, the entire system is a "read and react" offense, with much less set plays than Montyball (Monty called a play on basically every trip). Based on nothing but conjecture, I would think this type of system would take awhile to really start humming, as it requires players to think on the fly, instead of memorizing certain motions. It will take awhile for those habits to form, especially with most of the guys having a couple years of a set, controlled offense under Monty.
All that is basically me saying, I'm not sure that we have really seen Gentry's offense this year, or at least in the way that he envisions it. The ball is sticking way too much (Gordon has been a big culprit here, as it appears he is shooting anytime he can see the rim, though Holiday overdribbled a lot on Sat. too), and there are definitely times where you can tell the guys aren't sure where they are supposed to be. Considering the production they have had so far, despite not looking all that great in the execution department (not to mention the injuries), I'm still cautiously optimistic this team will be lighting up scoreboards by the time January rolls around.
All that is basically me saying, I'm not sure that we have really seen Gentry's offense this year, or at least in the way that he envisions it. The ball is sticking way too much (Gordon has been a big culprit here, as it appears he is shooting anytime he can see the rim, though Holiday overdribbled a lot on Sat. too), and there are definitely times where you can tell the guys aren't sure where they are supposed to be. Considering the production they have had so far, despite not looking all that great in the execution department (not to mention the injuries), I'm still cautiously optimistic this team will be lighting up scoreboards by the time January rolls around.
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