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Message
re: AD has been working on his ball handling
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:22 am to TigerinATL
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:22 am to TigerinATL
AD is arguably the #2 PF in the league behind Love right now. Love is in his prime and AD is still prob 5 yrs away from entering his prime.
He could be all time good if he stays healthy!
He could be all time good if he stays healthy!
1
Posted on 7/26/14 at 4:57 pm to Peliclown
quote:
Who didn't think this
Rocketards
Posted on 7/26/14 at 8:34 pm to STEVED00
quote:
AD is arguably the #2 PF in the league behind Love right now. Love is in his prime and AD is still prob 5 yrs away from entering his prime.
What about Griffin or Aldridge? They are both young and in their primes as well..
I don't guess anybody is worried about how Davis will mesh with Asik or Anderson and how it will impact his numbers. Will he still play 35+mpg? Asik is a volume rebounder. That is bound to pull some rebounds from Davis. No team in the league had two players average double digit rebounds (only 2 team had two players average more than 9 per game). Somebody's numbers and minutes are going to be affected.. same as last year with the backcourt players..
Posted on 7/26/14 at 9:17 pm to brmark70816
quote:
What about Griffin or Aldridge? They are both young and in their primes as well..
He's already at their level and is only 21.
quote:
I don't guess anybody is worried about how Davis will mesh with Asik or Anderson and how it will impact his numbers.
Why should you be? He'll still get his minutes/shots just fine. He's working on his outside shot and now his ball handling. Any decrease(if any) will be offset by increased assists and the threat of an outside shot.
There's really no reason for an AD/Asik/Ryno frontcourt to work. Both PFs work perfectly with Asiks game and AD/Ryno we're fine offensively last year.
quote:
Will he still play 35+mpg? Asik is a volume rebounder. That is bound to pull some rebounds from Davis. No team in the league had two players average double digit rebounds (only 2 team had two players average more than 9 per game).
Asik probably will get his 11 or 12 boards a game while AD gets 8-10. Asiks defensive presence helps more than stats.
I'm really not sure why you're worried about numbers getting slightly affected if areas like defense/efficiency and most importantly wins increase.
quote:
Somebody's numbers and minutes are going to be affected.. same as last year with the backcourt players..
The backcourt barely got any minutes together to make a judgement.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 10:02 pm to brmark70816
quote:
What about Griffin or Aldridge? They are both young and in their primes as well..
Thats the thing. AD is NOT in his prime. He is 5 yrs away from the start of his prime.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 10:04 pm to STEVED00
quote:is that when he goes to the lakers?
He is 5 yrs away from the start of his prime.
Posted on 7/26/14 at 10:16 pm to LosLobos111
quote:
Why should you be? He'll still get his minutes/shots just fine. He's working on his outside shot and now his ball handling. Any decrease(if any) will be offset by increased assists and the threat of an outside shot.
This would just be horrible. Davis is a future Center, the first stretch 5. He can play PF and I don't mind him expanding his skills. But he doesn't need to be trying to cross guys over or shooting 3's. I want him bulking up and working on post moves.
quote:
Asik probably will get his 11 or 12 boards a game while AD gets 8-10. Asiks defensive presence helps more than stats. I'm really not sure why you're worried about numbers getting slightly affected if areas like defense/efficiency and most importantly wins increase.
I don't want Davis's numbers to dip and there is no way Asik out rebounds him next year. Besides, they are also adding in Anderson who averages 6+rpg. I don't mind the Asik addition and I know he will help, but keeping Anderson muddies the water. I don't see how the rotation will work. It's 3 starters for 2 positions (just like the backcourt).
It's easy to say that they will figure out a good rotation. But I believe it will come down to match ups and guys minutes will yo-yo from game to game. Plus it's simple math that someone's numbers have to go down. We already saw that this past season.
quote:
The backcourt barely got any minutes together to make a judgement.
Really? Then why does everybody think that Gordon has to go? I thought we all agreed that it doesn't work the way it is now..
This post was edited on 7/26/14 at 10:18 pm
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:17 pm to brmark70816
Asik will absolutely out rebound Davis next season. He's definitely a better rebounder, I don't believe there is any measure that would say that Davis is superior in that aspect. Davis grabbed 10 rebounds a game last season on a team where the SF was the second best rebounder on the team.
Davis is not a damn center
There are 96 minutes for the C and PF positions. 36 for Davis 30 for Asik, 30 for Anderson...what's wrong with that?
Davis is not a damn center
There are 96 minutes for the C and PF positions. 36 for Davis 30 for Asik, 30 for Anderson...what's wrong with that?
Posted on 7/26/14 at 11:26 pm to brmark70816
quote:
This would just be horrible. Davis is a future Center, the first stretch 5. He can play PF and I don't mind him expanding his skills. But he doesn't need to be trying to cross guys over or shooting 3's. I want him bulking up and working on post moves.
It's just something to add to his arsenal. What's wrong with him adding different facets to his game? He's bulking up just fine and surely working on his post moves.
Why do you think he's a future center? If he's a duncan type that plays it every now and then then sure but not full time.
quote:
I don't want Davis's numbers to dip and there is no way Asik out rebounds him next year.
So what if his rebounds dip to 8.5-9 a game? Asik is one of the best rebounders in the league so he's going to get boards regardless.
quote:
Besides, they are also adding in Anderson who averages 6+rpg.
So what? Anderson complements asik perfectly and he's there for spacing and scoring. You're concentrating too much on numbers.
quote:
. I don't mind the Asik addition and I know he will help, but keeping Anderson muddies the water. I don't see how the rotation will work. It's 3 starters for 2 positions (just like the backcourt).
It doesn't "muddy" the water. AD can play both the 4 and 5. He'll just play the 5 with anderson in. I already explained Ryno/Asik.
The backcourt: Jrue/Tyreke(ecspecially him) can play multiple positions at times so that doesn't matter.
Positions in the NBA are fluid.
quote:
It's easy to say that they will figure out a good rotation. But I believe it will come down to match ups and guys minutes will yo-yo from game to game. Plus it's simple math that someone's numbers have to go down. We already saw that this past season.
You make a solid point but guys numbers didn't flucuate all that much. Can you give examples of what you're refering too?
quote:
Really? Then why does everybody think that Gordon has to go? I thought we all agreed that it doesn't work the way it is now..
It's more to do with his contract than anything. I don't see him being a part of this team's future.
Posted on 7/27/14 at 12:52 am to LosLobos111
quote:
Why do you think he's a future center? If he's a duncan type that plays it every now and then then sure but not full time.
I just thought that was common knowledge and agreed upon. He is almost 7 foot and a premier shot blocker. He was compared to T. Chandler and M. Camby, who both grew into really good Centers. It's more of a premium position and harder to fill. That's why guys, like Splitter, who can barely score 10ppg are getting 10M a year around the league.
quote:
So what? Anderson complements asik perfectly and he's there for spacing and scoring. You're concentrating too much on numbers.
How would you know this? They have never played together and Asik has never played with anyone like Anderson. I think that's just a huge assumption. I don't see how Asik would benefit from extra space and a huge plus for Anderson is offensive rebounding. How would that be affected?
quote:
The backcourt: Jrue/Tyreke(ecspecially him) can play multiple positions at times so that doesn't matter. Positions in the NBA are fluid.
I just don't agree with this at all. It's nice to have flexible players. But you want guys that can master and defend a specific position. We need Holiday to be a great PG and play very effective defense. If Evans is going to play SG, he has to be able to hit open shots and not just barrel at the rim.
quote:
You make a solid point but guys numbers didn't flucuate all that much. Can you give examples of what you're refering too?
We had two major injuries last year, that helped to even out the numbers somewhat. But generally speaking we had guys going on binges through the season. As they did, the other guys around them tended to fade away. When Anderson was going off, Davis's numbers were down. When Anderson went down, Davis's numbers skyrocketed. Same thing with Holiday and Evans.
If we keep that full core (Holiday, Gordon, Evans, Anderson, Davis, Asik). Some of those guys number's will plummet. It's just math. It makes for a lot of uncertainty and not a very good team.
Posted on 7/27/14 at 4:56 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Monty also said he may have to lighten the training camp load of Asik and AD because of their participation in international basketball this summer.
This post was edited on 7/27/14 at 5:00 am
Posted on 7/27/14 at 8:33 am to brmark70816
Stahp.
Posted on 7/27/14 at 9:07 am to brmark70816
quote:
But generally speaking we had guys going on binges through the season. As they did, the other guys around them tended to fade away. When Anderson was going off, Davis's numbers were down. When Anderson went down, Davis's numbers skyrocketed. Same thing with Holiday and Evans.
Come. On.
Why does it matter if some guys see their numbers go down yet the team is winning? Isn't that part of the point of building a roster with 6 guys with good to great talent?
quote:
you want guys that can master and defend a specific position
Not for me. We saw the Spurs dismantle everyone with flexibility throughout their lineup. We saw Phoenix come from nowhere with the same idea. Dallas is another team that doesn't give a damn about specific positions.
quote:
We need Holiday to be a great PG
quote:
If Evans is going to play SG, he has to be able to hit open shots
This is likely beyond what either guy can do. Why force square pegs into round holes? On offense, Evans should be more of a "PG" than Holiday (he's better at it) and Holiday should be more of a "SG" (he's better at that).
Posted on 7/27/14 at 9:47 am to brmark70816
quote:
If we keep that full core (Holiday, Gordon, Evans, Anderson, Davis, Asik). Some of those guys number's will plummet. It's just math. It makes for a lot of uncertainty and not a very good team.
When LeBron and Bosh joined Wade in Miami all of their numbers went down. That was obviously terrible for the team...
Posted on 7/27/14 at 10:47 am to corndeaux
quote:
Why does it matter if some guys see their numbers go down yet the team is winning? Isn't that part of the point of building a roster with 6 guys with good to great talent?
That would be a great point, if the team was actually winning. I don't believe you build a great or winning team, by taking good to great players and putting them in a position to be lesser contributors. I believe in the less is more philosophy, where you take 2-3 great players and surround them with strong role players that accentuate their abilities.
Right now, we have one great player in Davis. So I want to place players around him that help him to transcend where he is now. I think in their own way, either Anderson or Asik can help him do that. But I struggle to see where all 3 can play to their maximum ability when one has to sit down or wait for the right match up to excel. I hope it works out, but you can't blame me for being leery of something that hasn't happened before and is a pretty big gamble.
quote:
Not for me. We saw the Spurs dismantle everyone with flexibility throughout their lineup. We saw Phoenix come from nowhere with the same idea. Dallas is another team that doesn't give a damn about specific positions
I can approach this team by team, but I just don't agree with your assertion. The Spurs has flexibility, but they have dominant roles throughout their team. Parker is a great PG and handles that role perfectly. Manu is a good wing player. Duncan is a master post player. Leonard is starting to become a great wing player with a great all around game (taking over Manu's role). Sure those guys can play more than one position, but they still have primary roles. The other players fit in where they don't and fluctuate depending on match ups. I don't see how we are doing the same thing. We have more better players. But they don't have defined roles, yet.
quote:
This is likely beyond what either guy can do. Why force square pegs into round holes? On offense, Evans should be more of a "PG" than Holiday (he's better at it) and Holiday should be more of a "SG" (he's better at that).
I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to team construction. I believe you identify certain needs and go after guys to fill specific roles. That has made it hard for me and many others to grasp what this team has done over the past few seasons. Acquiring redundant high dollar pieces and ignoring gapping holes has doomed the team from the beginning each year.
If the goal was just to make the playoffs and money wasn't a concern, then it should have been pretty simple. If Holiday isn't a good PG then this team is pretty much f'd. I really thought that was the only thing that gave us a shot last season. If he isn't going to be that player then I really don't get the plan.
Posted on 7/27/14 at 2:35 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I believe in the less is more philosophy, where you take 2-3 great players and surround them with strong role players that accentuate their abilities.
That's fair. It's just hard to find 2-3 great players and if you go that route, those 2-3 guys need to be very, very, very good. I do think there is something to the idea of asking good players to do less than usual and planning on an increase in efficiency. But I don't think you're wrong to want the Big 3 type team- those are the teams that usually win the titles.
quote:
they have dominant roles throughout their team
Yes, roles. Just about every guy they play offers multiple skills- shooting, passing, dribbling, creating, screening, finishing. That creates the flexibility to have possessions like this
Take Parker; he is a completely different "PG" than Chris Paul or what we see from Holiday. He doesn't pound the ball at the top of the key, waiting for high screens and probing a defense. He's rarely been a huge assist guy. He is constantly moving with and without the ball. He may end up with the ball a lot, but he is a completely different type of "PG" than what the paradigm is generally thought to be.
quote:
I don't see how we are doing the same thing. We have more better players. But they don't have defined roles, yet.
The Pelicans didn't last year. I think some of that is because Monty is more into defined positional roles with a roster that is full of guys who defy those expectations.
There is potential, but, IMO, the scheme needs to change and the players have to buy in. The Spurs work because the scheme is brilliant and everyone buys in- their guys consistently play less minutes, have lower stats and take less money to stay. It's unheard of.
quote:
I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to team construction. I believe you identify certain needs and go after guys to fill specific roles
And that is fine. I feel a little bit differently but however they get to be as good as possible doesn't matter to me. I think the main difference here is roles- I look at those roles as skill sets rather than positions. Anderson brings 3PT shooting- that he is doing it 6'10" 240lbs is unusual, but, to me, largely irrelevant. It just means you need to compensate in other ways.
quote:
. If Holiday isn't a good PG
He is a good PG. To me, the offense asks him to play like a Paul and it isn't a strength of his. I see him as more of an off ball, even D and 3 type PG who can create. I think Evans is a better creator than Holiday and should be the primary perimeter engine of the offense when he is on the floor. He can't shoot, he knows this, defenses know this and he still gets to the rim at a ridiculous rate.
Posted on 7/27/14 at 3:16 pm to corndeaux
quote:
That's fair. It's just hard to find 2-3 great players and if you go that route, those 2-3 guys need to be very, very, very good. I do think there is something to the idea of asking good players to do less than usual and planning on an increase in efficiency. But I don't think you're wrong to want the Big 3 type team- those are the teams that usually win the titles.
It's also how teams are designed to be built, salary wise. A team can really only pay 2-3 guys 10 figures. You still need mid level vets to compliment them. Then you should have low wage draft picks to foster competition and give the team energy. We have 3 guys making 10 figures and it can be argued that none of them are top 25 players. Not to mention two other guys making well over the mid level that are now going to become part-time starters based on match-ups. We haven't added any draft picks that can hope to crack the top 8 of the rotation in two seasons (3 after next year).
I didn't think it was possible, but this team is even more stuck this year than they were last year and I don't think it's any better of a team. Realistically, we are probably the 9th or 10th seed in the West. After all the moves, it will still depend on Davis making an even bigger leap than last season. It's just not fair to keep putting it all on him..
quote:
Take Parker; he is a completely different "PG" than Chris Paul or what we see from Holiday. He doesn't pound the ball at the top of the key, waiting for high screens and probing a defense. He's rarely been a huge assist guy. He is constantly moving with and without the ball. He may end up with the ball a lot, but he is a completely different type of "PG" than what the paradigm is generally thought to be
Parker is a demon and almost always initiates their offense. He doesn't put up big stat numbers, but that's due to team ball movement and how they spread it around. That and he is a very gifted scorer. But he is a lead guard no doubt. Every team needs one or at least someone to take on that role (I can see the Miami/James comparisons coming already).
quote:
The Pelicans didn't last year. I think some of that is because Monty is more into defined positional roles with a roster that is full of guys who defy those expectations.
I don't blame Monty. Almost every coach in the league is the same way. A lot of fans want to get rid of Monty and get someone like Karl. What would Karl do? I would bet he would totally re-shape our roster in less than a year. He put a ton of focus on a strong lead guard, defense, transition and pushing the tempo. Not many of our players would fit into that model.
quote:
He is a good PG. To me, the offense asks him to play like a Paul and it isn't a strength of his. I see him as more of an off ball, even D and 3 type PG who can create. I think Evans is a better creator than Holiday and should be the primary perimeter engine of the offense when he is on the floor. He can't shoot, he knows this, defenses know this and he still gets to the rim at a ridiculous rate.
I know what you are saying and it is totally true, but it's depressing. We are going to try to develop these niche situational players that only fit in the right conditions. What happens when we have injuries or someone gets in foul trouble? Then it becomes flawed or guys don't fit together quite as well. Cause it's all a gimic. They are trying to find a short cut to greatness or copy a model that is not possible to copy.
We cannot be the Spurs. We don't have what they have in any way. We don't have to be them. We had time, space and the tools to build a strong, competitive team. Which maybe it still can be. We just aren't going to be them.
Posted on 7/27/14 at 4:08 pm to brmark70816
quote:
It's also how teams are designed to be built, salary wise. A team can really only pay 2-3 guys 10 figures. You still need mid level vets to compliment them. Then you should have low wage draft picks to foster competition and give the team energy. We have 3 guys making 10 figures and it can be argued that none of them are top 25 players. Not to mention two other guys making well over the mid level that are now going to become part-time starters based on match-ups. We haven't added any draft picks that can hope to crack the top 8 of the rotation in two seasons (3 after next year).
Tyreke was #6 in terms of SF PER and his numbers starting nearly 20 PPG with 6.5 asts 6.0 Rebounds on nearly 50% FG are top 25 player numbers. Would you rather parsons/hayward at nearly 16 million a year or tyreke for a shade under 11? His contract looks like a bargain this year.
Holiday definitely can play like a top 25-30 guy.
Gordon really isn't(he used too) but that's not worth discussing.
Asik and Anderson are making below or at their market value. Asik would've gotten 10 mil a year(hell gortat got 12) and Anderson(if 100%) would've gotten close to it or above it. They'll get 30 mins a game which is starter minutes.
Demps has proven he can get competent players at low wage WITHOUT draft picks(Roberts/Ayon/Ajinca/Smith(jason and now russ)/babbitt/young etc)
Outside of gordon this team is in pretty solid shape. They'd have only about 50 mil on the books(assuming asik gets signed for 10-11 mil a year). That's roughly around 15-17 mil in cap space.
It's not out of the question they get a later first for anderson later if they moved him.
This post was edited on 7/27/14 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 7/27/14 at 4:27 pm to brmark70816
quote:
A team can really only pay 2-3 guys 10 figures. You still need mid level vets to compliment them. Then you should have low wage draft picks to foster competition and give the team energy. We have 3 guys making 10 figures and it can be argued that none of them are top 25 players.
WHOA!
10 figures = billions
Posted on 7/27/14 at 4:36 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:maybe he's counting decimal places
WHOA!
10 figures = billions
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