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Started By
Message
Thoughts on Catholic Church's Economic Philosophy
Posted on 4/28/14 at 10:24 pm
Posted on 4/28/14 at 10:24 pm
"Official" Catholic Economic Beliefs
FAQ for those who like simple formats
" According to distributists, property ownership is a fundamental right and the means of production should be spread as widely as possible rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state socialism), a few individuals (plutocracy), or corporations (corporatocracy). Distributism therefore advocates a society marked by widespread property ownership and, according to co-operative economist Race Mathews, maintains that such a system is key to bringing about a just social order."
"Distributists are decentralists who believe most organizational functions (whether business, government, or labor) should occur at the smallest competent level as possible (subsidiarity). Institutions like local guilds and governments exist to curb large-scale control, whether bureaucratic or commercial."
FAQ for those who like simple formats
" According to distributists, property ownership is a fundamental right and the means of production should be spread as widely as possible rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state socialism), a few individuals (plutocracy), or corporations (corporatocracy). Distributism therefore advocates a society marked by widespread property ownership and, according to co-operative economist Race Mathews, maintains that such a system is key to bringing about a just social order."
"Distributists are decentralists who believe most organizational functions (whether business, government, or labor) should occur at the smallest competent level as possible (subsidiarity). Institutions like local guilds and governments exist to curb large-scale control, whether bureaucratic or commercial."
11
Posted on 4/28/14 at 10:48 pm to Eric Cartman
(no message)
This post was edited on 5/2/14 at 9:28 pm
Posted on 4/28/14 at 10:54 pm to Eric Cartman
Time for the False Prophet to come forward.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 11:13 pm to Eric Cartman
So, in distributim, who gets to decide when someone has "too much"..or even what "too much" is?
Posted on 4/28/14 at 11:20 pm to S.E.C. Crazy
quote:
Time for the False Prophet to come forward.
already has: antichrist on the left, false prophet on the right
Posted on 4/28/14 at 11:21 pm to stuntman
No clue. What confuses me especially as a Catholic is how would an international church fit into this power reductionist mindset.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 12:07 am to Eric Cartman
I'm not sure what in this is really inconsistent with the Pope's message. All countries are centralized to varying degrees which inevitably corrupts free market principals that are to the benefit of everybody. We don't deny that we have income inequality in the United States, but the U.S. is not a perfectly capitalist nation by any stretch. More capitalist than most, certainly.
So there are economic injustices that ought to be corrected. But the state should simply not attempt to forcibly pursue those corrections because they will inevitably fall short.
So there are economic injustices that ought to be corrected. But the state should simply not attempt to forcibly pursue those corrections because they will inevitably fall short.
This post was edited on 4/29/14 at 12:08 am
Posted on 4/29/14 at 12:13 am to Eric Cartman
All I know is all those protestants and baptists who have insisted that the catholic church is the "Whore of Babylon" for centuries are really taking all this pope's economic and political statements to mean he is the anti-christ/false prophet.
I really, really wish I were just joking and/or trolling.
I really, really wish I were just joking and/or trolling.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 12:30 am to Eric Cartman
quote:Just like the catholic church.
Distributists are decentralists who believe most organizational functions (whether business, government, or labor) should occur at the smallest competent level as possible
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:12 am to Eric Cartman
official Catholic Expert here to comment 
anyway from what I understand Distibutism is not, and I repeat not, an official economic position of the Church. The Catholic Church has no endorsed any economic system or political system. Distributism is mostly G.K. Chesterton's economic system based on his view on important Church documents from Popes.
I haven't studied this economic philosophy enough to know the inner workings, how well it would work, etc. Most "traditional" catholics will hold to this view and strongly support it.
Let me lay out some of the essentials to be understood in Catohlic Teaching that should influence
Man should be able to privately own his property, but those who own private property should use it in a way that promotes the common good, the sustainability of the environments, along with other issues. The Church, to my knowledge, doesn't comment on how this should be enforced. I think this is for good reason, the church is laying out principles to be followed and not trying to become an international government that forces laws down government's throats. It is the job of people and if necessary the state to make sure that people use what they own for the common good.
A point I brought up is the common good, the common good simply means that every single individual in society is having their needs meet and their rights fulfilled. The goal of the state is to promote the common good and protect it if it is achieved. Same goes with the economic system. Any economic system that takes advantage of someone, deprives someone of their rights or their basic human needs goes against this principle and should be defended against.
Fundamental option for the poor is another important principle. Now this isn't some socialistic idea where you should steal from the rich and give to the poor. Rather this is simply a guiding principle for life that everyone should have a generosity for minority groups, and the poor. People who are at a disadvantage shouldn't be ignored in society. Again as before the Church doesn't say how this is supposed to play itself out but it does give us a principle to live by.
Subsidiarity, simply that things that can be done at a lower level should be done at a lower level. This flies against the idea of a state run society, or the state being king. I don't really know how this effects economics.
Family as fundamental building blocks of society. Simply put the family is the foundation of all society and economic activity as well. This is because we all are born into a family, no single human being ever to live didn't grow up in a family, sure it may not be a blood related family but every single human person grew up in a family. Who we are, who we become is largely determined by the family. So it should be the goal of society to protect and promote the family and family values, any things that hurts or destroys the family should be stopped or at-least reduced. Again as before the Church doesn't say how this is to be protected just gives a principle.
there are more but this gives you guys a good start.
AGAIN
Distributism is not the official economic philosophy of the Church. Rather, a very devout Catholic G.K. Chesterton started this philosophy and now many Catholics believe it is the best. No Pope, or Vatican congregation has ever endorsed this view point.
Some documents to read.
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
note: I don't believe anyone will actually read these documents, but if you really want to get into what the Church believes when it comes to the state, the community, politics, economics, etc. than you should read these documents. Don't read what CNN says, or fox news, or even some random blogger. If you really want to get into what the Church teaches read these documents. For everyone else I believe I gave a good summery of some of the teachings.
anyway from what I understand Distibutism is not, and I repeat not, an official economic position of the Church. The Catholic Church has no endorsed any economic system or political system. Distributism is mostly G.K. Chesterton's economic system based on his view on important Church documents from Popes.
I haven't studied this economic philosophy enough to know the inner workings, how well it would work, etc. Most "traditional" catholics will hold to this view and strongly support it.
Let me lay out some of the essentials to be understood in Catohlic Teaching that should influence
Man should be able to privately own his property, but those who own private property should use it in a way that promotes the common good, the sustainability of the environments, along with other issues. The Church, to my knowledge, doesn't comment on how this should be enforced. I think this is for good reason, the church is laying out principles to be followed and not trying to become an international government that forces laws down government's throats. It is the job of people and if necessary the state to make sure that people use what they own for the common good.
A point I brought up is the common good, the common good simply means that every single individual in society is having their needs meet and their rights fulfilled. The goal of the state is to promote the common good and protect it if it is achieved. Same goes with the economic system. Any economic system that takes advantage of someone, deprives someone of their rights or their basic human needs goes against this principle and should be defended against.
Fundamental option for the poor is another important principle. Now this isn't some socialistic idea where you should steal from the rich and give to the poor. Rather this is simply a guiding principle for life that everyone should have a generosity for minority groups, and the poor. People who are at a disadvantage shouldn't be ignored in society. Again as before the Church doesn't say how this is supposed to play itself out but it does give us a principle to live by.
Subsidiarity, simply that things that can be done at a lower level should be done at a lower level. This flies against the idea of a state run society, or the state being king. I don't really know how this effects economics.
Family as fundamental building blocks of society. Simply put the family is the foundation of all society and economic activity as well. This is because we all are born into a family, no single human being ever to live didn't grow up in a family, sure it may not be a blood related family but every single human person grew up in a family. Who we are, who we become is largely determined by the family. So it should be the goal of society to protect and promote the family and family values, any things that hurts or destroys the family should be stopped or at-least reduced. Again as before the Church doesn't say how this is to be protected just gives a principle.
there are more but this gives you guys a good start.
AGAIN
Distributism is not the official economic philosophy of the Church. Rather, a very devout Catholic G.K. Chesterton started this philosophy and now many Catholics believe it is the best. No Pope, or Vatican congregation has ever endorsed this view point.
Some documents to read.
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
LINK
note: I don't believe anyone will actually read these documents, but if you really want to get into what the Church believes when it comes to the state, the community, politics, economics, etc. than you should read these documents. Don't read what CNN says, or fox news, or even some random blogger. If you really want to get into what the Church teaches read these documents. For everyone else I believe I gave a good summery of some of the teachings.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:18 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
All I know is all those protestants and baptists who have insisted that the catholic church is the "Whore of Babylon" for centuries are really taking all this pope's economic and political statements to mean he is the anti-christ/false prophet.
I really, really wish I were just joking and/or trolling.
what?
This post was edited on 4/29/14 at 8:19 am
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:19 am to Eric Cartman
I am not a catholic, I am a protestant, so I could care less about the catholic church or Pope's stance on anything.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:19 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
anyway from what I understand Distibutism is not, and I repeat not, an official economic position of the Church. The Catholic Church has no endorsed any economic system or political system. Distributism is mostly G.K. Chesterton's economic system based on his view on important Church documents from Popes.
Precisely.
Just to add the Church claims and I believe it, only has authority when it comes to faith and morals. Economics is not faith and morals. Science is not faith and moral. History is not faith and morals. Law is not faith and moral.
However, all of these subjects do have a degree of faith and morals (especially morals) that are intrinsic to each. I do believe the Church has the authority to speak to the faith and morals aspect of each subject.
I hope that distinction is now clear.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:55 am to Eric Cartman
Not to burst your bubble, but none of those are official anything when it comes to Catholic economic teachings. What you are looking for is what is written in the Catechism, specifically 2401 - 2463 or so to wit:
Source
Bottom line is the teaching places the onus for helping the less fortunate and for deploying capital in the most beneficial way to the people who legitimately possess those items. As Catholics we each are called to help those around us to the best of our abilities as determined by our conscience. The States role is as a referee and its role is only legitimate when it respects private property and the individuals right.
Furthermore, if you as a Catholic are doing something and only concerning yourself with economic profit and storing treasure on earth your are morally wrong.
The teaching is about individual responsibility and individual ownership and individual deployment of their goods.
As Paul himself said "those who are able to work and choose not to should go hungry".
quote:
ARTICLE 7
THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT
You shall not steal.186
2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one's neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods. It commands justice and charity in the care of earthly goods and the fruits of men's labor. For the sake of the common good, it requires respect for the universal destination of goods and respect for the right to private property. Christian life strives to order this world's goods to God and to fraternal charity.
I. THE UNIVERSAL DESTINATION AND THE PRIVATE OWNERSHIP OF GOODS
2402 In the beginning God entrusted the earth and its resources to the common stewardship of mankind to take care of them, master them by labor, and enjoy their fruits.187 The goods of creation are destined for the whole human race. However, the earth is divided up among men to assure the security of their lives, endangered by poverty and threatened by violence. The appropriation of property is legitimate for guaranteeing the freedom and dignity of persons and for helping each of them to meet his basic needs and the needs of those in his charge. It should allow for a natural solidarity to develop between men.
2403 The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.
2404 "In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself."188 The ownership of any property makes its holder a steward of Providence, with the task of making it fruitful and communicating its benefits to others, first of all his family.
2405 Goods of production - material or immaterial - such as land, factories, practical or artistic skills, oblige their possessors to employ them in ways that will benefit the greatest number. Those who hold goods for use and consumption should use them with moderation, reserving the better part for guests, for the sick and the poor.
2406 Political authority has the right and duty to regulate the legitimate exercise of the right to ownership for the sake of the common good.189
II. RESPECT FOR PERSONS AND THEIR GOODS
2407 In economic matters, respect for human dignity requires the practice of the virtue of temperance, so as to moderate attachment to this world's goods; the practice of the virtue of justice, to preserve our neighbor's rights and render him what is his due; and the practice of solidarity, in accordance with the golden rule and in keeping with the generosity of the Lord, who "though he was rich, yet for your sake . . . became poor so that by his poverty, you might become rich."190
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
III. THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH
2419 "Christian revelation . . . promotes deeper understanding of the laws of social living."199 The Church receives from the Gospel the full revelation of the truth about man. When she fulfills her mission of proclaiming the Gospel, she bears witness to man, in the name of Christ, to his dignity and his vocation to the communion of persons. She teaches him the demands of justice and peace in conformity with divine wisdom.
2420 The Church makes a moral judgment about economic and social matters, "when the fundamental rights of the person or the salvation of souls requires it."200 In the moral order she bears a mission distinct from that of political authorities: the Church is concerned with the temporal aspects of the common good because they are ordered to the sovereign Good, our ultimate end. She strives to inspire right attitudes with respect to earthly goods and in socio-economic relationships.
2423 The Church's social teaching proposes principles for reflection; it provides criteria for judgment; it gives guidelines for action:
Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.203
2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204
A system that "subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production" is contrary to human dignity.205 Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."206
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with "communism" or "socialism." She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
[quote]
Source
Bottom line is the teaching places the onus for helping the less fortunate and for deploying capital in the most beneficial way to the people who legitimately possess those items. As Catholics we each are called to help those around us to the best of our abilities as determined by our conscience. The States role is as a referee and its role is only legitimate when it respects private property and the individuals right.
Furthermore, if you as a Catholic are doing something and only concerning yourself with economic profit and storing treasure on earth your are morally wrong.
The teaching is about individual responsibility and individual ownership and individual deployment of their goods.
As Paul himself said "those who are able to work and choose not to should go hungry".
This post was edited on 4/29/14 at 8:57 am
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:56 am to goldennugget
quote:
I am not a catholic, I am a protestant, so I could care less about the catholic church or Pope's stance on anything.
How much less could you care?
Posted on 4/29/14 at 8:59 am to Mid Iowa Tiger
you can also read this
LINK
jump down to chapter 7 there is an entire chapter on economic life.
the bellow is one of my favorite from this document.
go find it and read past it though because it does say that you can't separate the free market from ethical systems.
LINK
jump down to chapter 7 there is an entire chapter on economic life.
the bellow is one of my favorite from this document.
quote:
The free market is an institution of social importance because of its capacity to guarantee effective results in the production of goods and services. Historically, it has shown itself able to initiate and sustain economic development over long periods. There are good reasons to hold that, in many circumstances, “the free market is the most efficient instrument for utilizing resources and effectively responding to needs”.[726] The Church's social doctrine appreciates the secure advantages that the mechanisms of the free market offer, making it possible as they do to utilize resources better and facilitating the exchange of products. These mechanisms “above all ... give central place to the person's desires and preferences, which, in a contract, meet the desires and preferences of another person”.[727]
A truly competitive market is an effective instrument for attaining important objectives of justice: moderating the excessive profits of individual businesses, responding to consumers' demands, bringing about a more efficient use and conservation of resources, rewarding entrepreneurship and innovation, making information available so that it is really possible to compare and purchase products in an atmosphere of healthy competition.
The free market cannot be judged apart from the ends that it seeks to accomplish and from the values that it transmits on a societal level. Indeed, the market cannot find in itself the principles for its legitimization; it belongs to the consciences of individuals and to public responsibility to establish a just relationship between means and ends.[728] The individual profit of an economic enterprise, although legitimate, must never become the sole objective. Together with this objective there is another, equally fundamental but of a higher order: social usefulness, which must be brought about not in contrast to but in keeping with the logic of the market. When the free market carries out the important functions mentioned above it becomes a service to the common good and to integral human development. The inversion of the relationship between means and ends, however, can make it degenerate into an inhuman and alienating institution, with uncontrollable repercussions.
go find it and read past it though because it does say that you can't separate the free market from ethical systems.
This post was edited on 4/29/14 at 9:02 am
Posted on 4/29/14 at 9:05 am to goldennugget
quote:
I am not a catholic, I am a protestant, so I could care less about the catholic church or Pope's stance on anything.
stuff like this is why we don't have religion threads on this place anymore (this isn't one, rather this is catholic economic philosophy) but people who couldn't stand religion would come in here complain and RA. If you don't like religion threads stay out of them. If people followed this simple rule we would still be able to discuss religion.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 10:59 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
go find it and read past it though because it does say that you can't separate the free market from ethical systems.
I totally agree with that statement. If you separate the two you end up with economic anarchy and a survival of the fittest type scenario. Trying to remember the book - kids on an island, conch to say who gets to talk, kids end up killing one another...
Anyway it would be chaos if they were divorced.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 11:29 am to RockyMtnTide
Obama can't be the anti-christ, he is not a Roman and won't be a head of the revived Roman Empire ( European Union ).
He very well might be the “ John the Baptist ” of the dark side. ( One who made the path clear ) The USA must lose all her credibilty, power and economic pull in order for the European Union to become the big dog, and Obama is certainly making that happen, rather quickly.
He very well might be the “ John the Baptist ” of the dark side. ( One who made the path clear ) The USA must lose all her credibilty, power and economic pull in order for the European Union to become the big dog, and Obama is certainly making that happen, rather quickly.
Posted on 4/29/14 at 11:32 am to S.E.C. Crazy
People have too much time on their hands to believe this bs
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