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re: Game of Thrones S4:E2:"The Lion and the Rose", HODORS ONLY (no book readers)
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:02 pm to Jarlaxle
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:02 pm to Jarlaxle
When the fool gave Sansa the necklace he said something like......give my family name one last moment in the sun. Maybe he knows that after Joff's death his family name will be tarnished forever. Sort of like a John Wilkes Booth
2
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:32 pm to BigDawg0420
quote:
When the fool gave Sansa the necklace he said something like......give my family name one last moment in the sun. Maybe he knows that after Joff's death his family name will be tarnished forever. Sort of like a John Wilkes Booth
See I don't get this part. Originally he made it seem like all he had in the world was this necklace that was a family heirloom and he owed everything he had to Sansa so he gave it to her. It was a privilege to let her wear it and give honor to his family one last time.
NOW it seems that was just a bullshite excuse to give her the necklace, right?
So someone gave him the necklace to use to kill Joffrey, if that's the way we're leaning. I don't see how the stone was poison. Did it dissolve?
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:45 pm to craigbiggio
After rewarching that video, I don't see how it could be granny anymore. Margery clearly puts the goblet on the table tight behind her, the one her and Joffrey were sitting at. The granny is clearly a table over. It does look like they pick up the cup from her table after Joffrey eats the pie, but I think that's just the angle.
There's no doubt that she would have had to get up, go over to that table and put something in the wine. To me, that really narrows it down to something to do with the pie. That is if the show writers put the act of the poisoning itself on screen. Otherwise it very well could be the cup...but that would put it back on Sansa IMO.
But then again, how does anyone even possibly know that Joffreys cup makes it's way all around the table? I don't think as an assassin you can assume something that will happen. That's why I'm really leaning more towards the pie in some way.
Jesus I can't wait to find this out
There's no doubt that she would have had to get up, go over to that table and put something in the wine. To me, that really narrows it down to something to do with the pie. That is if the show writers put the act of the poisoning itself on screen. Otherwise it very well could be the cup...but that would put it back on Sansa IMO.
But then again, how does anyone even possibly know that Joffreys cup makes it's way all around the table? I don't think as an assassin you can assume something that will happen. That's why I'm really leaning more towards the pie in some way.
Jesus I can't wait to find this out
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:49 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:
It was Joffrey's wedding, of course he would be the first to eat the pie IMO. It's not a stretch to think the others would wait til he did. But there was a delay between his taking the first bite and the choking.
I was thinking about this as well and doesn't rule out the pie for me. But see, that would also lead me to believe that the Tyrells knew what was going on...bc what would have stopped Maergery from grabbing a piece at the same time Joffrey did?
But then again....why would the Tyrells even do this when it immediately cuts any ties of theirs to the throne.
Fuuuuuck!
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:51 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Yes. Tywin was being uncharacteristically accommodating and kind (valeryan steel sword) to Joffrey. What kind of power would the husband (Loris) of the queen regent have? That could possibly be the payoff for the Tyrells.
Good call....this is honestly the most logical thing I can think of right now
This post was edited on 4/15/14 at 6:55 pm
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:51 pm to wadewilson
quote:
It kinda feels like Jamie is a bit cast aside currently.
Yep, and now two kings who have died under his watch. That is going to look very bad for him.
I do think he will try to help Tyrion, though.
This post was edited on 4/15/14 at 6:52 pm
Posted on 4/15/14 at 6:57 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
I initially thought it was the pie, but there was a shite ton of foreshadowing throughout the episode that makes me almost positive it was the wine.
- the fool being in on it, thus killing Joffrey with wine after Joffrey had planned to do the same to him
- Tyrion's line to Jaime: "It's just wine" after he had spilled some when they were eating together
- Joffrey pouring wine all over Tyrion's head
It just has too much significance throughout the plot for it not be a clue, IMO. I know I'm missing some other examples as well.
- the fool being in on it, thus killing Joffrey with wine after Joffrey had planned to do the same to him
- Tyrion's line to Jaime: "It's just wine" after he had spilled some when they were eating together
- Joffrey pouring wine all over Tyrion's head
It just has too much significance throughout the plot for it not be a clue, IMO. I know I'm missing some other examples as well.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:00 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
The question is an odd amalgam of who benefits and who has nothing to lose. Who has motive?
Do the Tyrell's have anything to lose by killing J? No. Marriages are born of benefit. The Lannisters need the Tyrells. J dying doesnt change that. This could be crazy, but Margaery is young. Tommen will be of age to marry in a few years. Could she be handed off? Tyrells still get their queen and a claim to the throne. Additionally, they get rid of crazypants Joffrey. How long would it be until Joffrey either killed Margaery or sparked an outright rebellion and lost the throne?
From that perspective, it doesnt seem absurd for them to be the culprit. And I still believe it was a plot hatched with Tywin.
as for when, theres clearly a scene before J gets the wine for the last time that shows the goblet and Olenna in the background. She could have slipped it in then. I think it was right before Tyrion grabbed the goblet.
Maybe it was the pie, but that raises more questions than answers. Im skeptical of that theory.
Do the Tyrell's have anything to lose by killing J? No. Marriages are born of benefit. The Lannisters need the Tyrells. J dying doesnt change that. This could be crazy, but Margaery is young. Tommen will be of age to marry in a few years. Could she be handed off? Tyrells still get their queen and a claim to the throne. Additionally, they get rid of crazypants Joffrey. How long would it be until Joffrey either killed Margaery or sparked an outright rebellion and lost the throne?
From that perspective, it doesnt seem absurd for them to be the culprit. And I still believe it was a plot hatched with Tywin.
as for when, theres clearly a scene before J gets the wine for the last time that shows the goblet and Olenna in the background. She could have slipped it in then. I think it was right before Tyrion grabbed the goblet.
Maybe it was the pie, but that raises more questions than answers. Im skeptical of that theory.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:10 pm to NawlinsTiger9
quote:
I initially thought it was the pie, but there was a shite ton of foreshadowing throughout the episode that makes me almost positive it was the wine.
- the fool being in on it, thus killing Joffrey with wine after Joffrey had planned to do the same to him
- Tyrion's line to Jaime: "It's just wine" after he had spilled some when they were eating together
- Joffrey pouring wine all over Tyrion's head
It just has too much significance throughout the plot for it not be a clue, IMO. I know I'm missing some other examples as well.
So you're just now noticing that they drink a lot of wine?
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:14 pm to KosmoCramer
quote:
So you're just now noticing that they drink a lot of wine?
Sure, that's it.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:16 pm to NawlinsTiger9
Oh I agree I think the wine being poisoned is much more logical and could have been more easily done in theory. Not to mention how prevalent wine was throughout the episode. But, with what was presented strictly in the episode and explicitly shown to us, the pie being poisoned seems more plausible.
My head says it was the wine...and that just seems like such the obvious choice...but when you really break it down each part of the scene, I just don't see where it could have been done. That's assuming the writers even showed the moment where the poisoning of the cup could have occurred....which the next episode they very well could just say that's what happened and all of our speculation of when exactly it did happen was for nothing
My head says it was the wine...and that just seems like such the obvious choice...but when you really break it down each part of the scene, I just don't see where it could have been done. That's assuming the writers even showed the moment where the poisoning of the cup could have occurred....which the next episode they very well could just say that's what happened and all of our speculation of when exactly it did happen was for nothing
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:18 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
I didn't watch the scenes from the next episode.
Did they show the aftermath at all?
I'm worried they will skip it talk about something else, and then make reference to it in another context of someone finding out about it.
Then we have to wait two weeks.
Did they show the aftermath at all?
I'm worried they will skip it talk about something else, and then make reference to it in another context of someone finding out about it.
Then we have to wait two weeks.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:19 pm to Brettesaurus Rex
quote:
That's assuming the writers even showed the moment where the poisoning of the cup could have occurred....which the next episode they very well could just say that's what happened and all of our speculation of when exactly it did happen was for nothing
I'm betting on this, actually.
It'll probably be some kind of medieval ricin that Littlefinger told one of his whores to drop into Joffrey's breakfast 8 days before the wedding or some shite like that.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:19 pm to KosmoCramer
It was a quick shady preview. Didn't miss much
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:21 pm to NawlinsTiger9
Oh shite. Where has Baelish been? I didnt even consider that angle. Ugh. TOO MANY PODSIBILITIES!
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:27 pm to NawlinsTiger9
quote:
It'll probably be some kind of medieval ricin that Littlefinger told one of his whores to drop into Joffrey's breakfast 8 days before the wedding or some shite like that.
I don't understand why you keep thinking Littlefinger did it.
What makes you think that?
I get that he's a underhanded guy and all that, but he hasn't been around in season 4 I don't think. The brothel was mentioned I think?
If anything of that route it would be Varys. But I don't see why he would stick his neck out for anyone, what does he have to gain? He said in the episode that all he has is little birds that tell him things, that's about it.
Varys would have the knowledge of the fool though.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:30 pm to KosmoCramer
Yeah, that doesn't seem to be how Varys works. At least from anything I can think of off the top of my head.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:32 pm to Matisyeezy
Yeah, he has the power of information and basically playing all the sides at once.
If anything, he would be the one to stop the assassination and get the political capital that would go along with it from Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, etc.
The only mean streak he had was when he butchered the guy that cut off his dick. But I think we can all agree that it was justifiable
If anything, he would be the one to stop the assassination and get the political capital that would go along with it from Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, etc.
The only mean streak he had was when he butchered the guy that cut off his dick. But I think we can all agree that it was justifiable
Posted on 4/15/14 at 7:34 pm to KosmoCramer
I have no real reason to think that, it's just a fun theory.
He's a malicious and dangerous man who loved Lady Cat so completely that he could absolutely hold ill will against the Lannisters for having her killed.
He was also master of coin when the crown went into debt with the Iron Bank of Bravos - perhaps there's an angle there? Who knows.
He always talked about fricking his way to the top because he couldn't fight. Nothing says "fricking" like poisoning someone at their own wedding.
Seriously though, the only reason I think he'd be involved is because I really feel like he's going to be a big player as the story evolves and there has to be a time when he makes his reappearance.
He's a malicious and dangerous man who loved Lady Cat so completely that he could absolutely hold ill will against the Lannisters for having her killed.
He was also master of coin when the crown went into debt with the Iron Bank of Bravos - perhaps there's an angle there? Who knows.
He always talked about fricking his way to the top because he couldn't fight. Nothing says "fricking" like poisoning someone at their own wedding.
Seriously though, the only reason I think he'd be involved is because I really feel like he's going to be a big player as the story evolves and there has to be a time when he makes his reappearance.
Posted on 4/15/14 at 8:19 pm to NawlinsTiger9
Yeah, I dunno, don't see it.
I'm not feeling the cake either. I think that's just too messy, too much could go wrong.
With poisoning the wine, if you don't do it, no one will ever know that you planned it.
With the cake, if something goes wrong, a bunch of innocents could die and there's no assurance that Joffrey dies.
I see the cake as a bomb of sorts that would take out a lot of the Lannisters, Margaery, and potentially anyone at the head tables. And the people at the head tables are the most likely ones that would want to kill Joffrey and would have the access.
Unless it was the Red Viper, then he might not care about the collateral damage at all.
I'm not feeling the cake either. I think that's just too messy, too much could go wrong.
With poisoning the wine, if you don't do it, no one will ever know that you planned it.
With the cake, if something goes wrong, a bunch of innocents could die and there's no assurance that Joffrey dies.
I see the cake as a bomb of sorts that would take out a lot of the Lannisters, Margaery, and potentially anyone at the head tables. And the people at the head tables are the most likely ones that would want to kill Joffrey and would have the access.
Unless it was the Red Viper, then he might not care about the collateral damage at all.
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