re: How about a Bow Hunting thread?

The longer bace height bows are more forgiving to flaws in your form. The shorter the BH the longer the arrow stays on the string, which givers more time for the shooter with bad form to torque the bow. The longer your draw length, the bigger this issue will be.

The amount of creep a given bow will allow before trying to take off on you is determined by the size of the valley (the length that the bow maintains the let off). Most people that only hunt prefer a larger valley. Guys that shoot competively usually prefer a small/zero valley. Large valleys give you a little leeway when holding at full draw waiting on a shot, but the trade off is that they can cause you to not shoot as accurately because you don't have to maintain your pull into the wall until the shot. Generally speaking speed bows ( 340+ IBO rating ) have smaller valleys to take full advantage of a shooters draw length (for every extra 1" of draw length you get 10fps of extra speed). Often times you'll see manufacturers (Mathews in particular) draw lengths be 1/4 to 1/2 longer than advertised to meet their advertised IBO speeds while keeping a large valley on their bows (their last couple of bows haven't been this way)

Short ATA bows used to be a big deal for those with longer draw lengths due to the severe string angle moving the peep far away from your eye and making it difficult to have a consistent anchor point. With the advent of parallel limb bows the issue isn't nearly as bad as it used to be. On older short ATA bows the limbs had a considerable amount of flex on the draw, whereas now they flex very little, if at all.

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With bow hunting, more often than not the best is the most expensive.

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Oh for accessories, I get that. Being top notch is probably why it is so expensive.

But you'll be hard pressed to cost justify the incremental difference between the Brand new Carbon Element Spyder and a barely used 3-year-old Carbon Matrix.... hell, even the Matthews Z7 or Switchback XT.

So if the Z7 or Maxxis, is just as good as the latest models... why pay the extra $1k?
I find premium quality at a discount to be better than either medium quality or newest premium quality.

Do you disagree? Am I mis-judging the situation?

I believe the Mathews outback started the parallel trend in 04. In 08 or 09 is when bows went to being beyond parallel with the PSE speed bows. Mathews the went with the super long risers on the z7 and most 2011 or newer bows have similar designs

Mathews Q2 early 2000s model

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Switchback XT 06 model



Mathews Z7 2010 model

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Notice that the bows have become more square recently, eliminating the flex in the limbs.

It's hard to explain. The shape of the Z7 is just so unique compared to the Switchback. It feels totally different. Looking at both bows from the side at full draw and give you an idea.

IMO the XT is a "smoother" bow than the Z7 too. It's a much more fluid draw and the riser/limb angle seems much less extreme.

I'm glad that you guys are being patient and not getting offended with my probing, unknowledgeable (somewhat chippy) questions. It's why I love the OB.

I'll try to use an analogy to convey my querry.

Use the smartphone market as an example:
For someone that has no phone... is the difference between the Iphone 3/4 and the Iphone 6 really that much of a difference? They both have cameras, interent, apps, music, games, etc.
One will cost you $50... one costs $500.
Is the fingerprint scanner, airplay, and better screen worth 10x the price?

If the answer is absolutely yes.... then I wouldn't mind the price difference. If not, I'd be happy with my functional device.

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I wouldn't say that the XT/Maxxis are "just as good" as the Z7/Element, but as someone said earlier, I think that bow technology has peaked for at least the time being, so companies are splitting hairs now (a couple ounces here and there, half an inch here and there, etc.).

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So that's really what I'm trying to do with bows. Where is the point where the quality improvement isn't justified?
I think Raz4back metioned that post-2010 would be the start of the current plateau in the market.

I've heard good things about the Elite bows, but I haven't shot one yet. That's on my to-do list.

I also agree that the Z7 is the best bow Mathews has produced since then. I do love my Chill, but something about the Z7 was just better.

OP - I think 2010 was probably the beginning of the plateau too. Mathews released the Z7 in 2009, then the 2010 line was basically a line based around the Z7 with minor improvements/tweaks for different styles. As for your question, if you're not really, really serious about bowhunting or shooting, then the quality improvement isn't justified post-2010...just because you're looking for a really good bow at a price point. If you have the money and are willing to spend it, and you're really serious about bows, then I would say the quality improvement is totally worth spending the extra money, because you'd have to understanding and experience to take advantage of it and tweak it to your needs.

From what you've been posting, I think you'll be really happy buying any of those bows (Element, Maxxis, Z7, etc.). They're all great bows and are a step above most others.

eta: This may not be practical since you're looking online, and I don't know where you're located, but go shoot some used bows at a bow shop. If you're looking at buying a used bow locally, get the guy to meet you at a bow shop and have a bowtech that you trust give it a really good look. Like I said earlier, the only reason I bought my Chill used is because I've been friends with the guy that sold it to me since I was a kid, and he's my bowtech. I trust him 100% with my bows, and I know he takes care of his shite just like I take care of mine.

I've been shooting compound bows since the mid 80's and have owned/shot every brand imaginable. it all comes down to what feels best in YOUR hand.

Technology has definitely changed since the days of overdraws and 2213 XX75 Chuck Adams Superlight shafts. Some of my first bows were 42" axle to axle long, and maxed out at 83# draw weight. Arrows were lobbed at 245 fps which was smoking fast back in the early 90's.

Marketing strategy today is pushing for faster and shorter axle to axle bows. These "short" bows claim to be better when shooting out of a tree stand. Funny how I never had a problem killing my limit of deer, rabbits, & hogs as my early bows had 41" - 43" axle to axle lengths and probably weighed over 4.5 lbs. I also hunted out of a Baker tree stand, and thank GOD I'm still alive as those were definitely some widow makers. Sliding down a tree in Pearl River was pretty scary as I'm quite sure no one used safety belts/harnesses in the mid 80's.

I've been shooting Elite bows since 2008 and switched from Mathews. HOYT, Mathews, Bowtech, PSE, etc... all make great bows today due to advancements in limb, cam, riser, and string technology. I just feel more comfortable with the Elite smoooooth draw cycle and a back wall that is amazing.

As RB mentioned, Elite has a transferrable lifetime warranty. So basically you can buy a used, like new 2012 Elite Answer for around $450 (new cost was $850) and your bow is covered for life, regardless of owner.


My suggestion, go to your local pro shop and ask to demo or shoot all the bows within your budget. Heck, go to several bow shops, ask questions, do research, and shoot multiple bows, multiple times. Don't get pressured into buying brand X bow because your best friend shoots brand X. Buy what you want !

If you're ever around Laffy, I'll let you shoot my Elite bows and answer any questions you have. If you do buy a used bow, make sure the bow fits you as a 1/2" short or long draw length can make shooting uncomfortable and create bad form. Some bows require new cams or modules to change draw length which will set you back $35 to $75.

One last thing. Don't get caught up on speed and how many fps. a bow shoots. These IBO numbers are industry standard based on a 30" draw length , 70# bow , minimum weight arrow weighing 5 grs. per pound (350 grs), while shooting a bare shaft (no fletching). Speed sells today but is not required to put food in the freezer. Gazillions of animals have been killed by bows pushing hunting arrows from 250 - 285 fps. IMO, shot placement is way more important than speed.

hope this helps brother



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In other words, I'm calling BS

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Haha. I figured it was BS, but I didn't know enough to call him out on it.

Maybe what he means is his grouping is better but just estimated the difference.

What are your thoughts on rests?
Would you make a different selection for hunting vs non-hunting rests?

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Negligible, but enough to keep me from shooting a WB.

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Maybe I don't understand the definition of negligible.

How often do you hunt?
I hear alot of hunters claim whisker biscket is peace of mind in the stand.