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re: Do you believe the US will win a World Cup in your lifetime?
Posted on 3/30/14 at 10:30 pm to cwil177
Posted on 3/30/14 at 10:30 pm to cwil177
Why does 2002 have more weight than 2006 or 2010? Do you think the Koreans are believing their current ceiling is higher than the first knockout group just because they finished fourth that WC? 2002 doesn't mean anything. That tournament itself was extremely weird, not withstanding the horrible calls that put Spain and Italy out.
Why is it that getting beat by Ghana two times in a row not a better gauge of where we are as a team than one fortituous run in 2002 where we beat a Mexico team that we were better than and then played an aging German team that was already in the midst of rebuilding? Not to mention the fact the game is completely different now and favors technique and possession more than ever.
I don't believe the US will ever put the correct emphasis on technical skill to field a pool deep enough to compete with the elite teams. I see the wrong attitude prevalent in debate after debate, that all we need to do is for our best athletes to simply play the sport, which is an absolutely silly argument for numerous reasons, namely that the training methods for the elite level of the sport seem to select out players with fast-twitch muscle fibers, negating a large portion of our athlete base, and leaving us with the same athletes that we usually have access too.
Maybe people see me as too pessimistic, but it won't be as easy and painless a process as most people think. Even if we have our absolute best athletes, that usually leads to the punt and run style of play which everyone knows doesn't work at the international level.
Why is it that getting beat by Ghana two times in a row not a better gauge of where we are as a team than one fortituous run in 2002 where we beat a Mexico team that we were better than and then played an aging German team that was already in the midst of rebuilding? Not to mention the fact the game is completely different now and favors technique and possession more than ever.
I don't believe the US will ever put the correct emphasis on technical skill to field a pool deep enough to compete with the elite teams. I see the wrong attitude prevalent in debate after debate, that all we need to do is for our best athletes to simply play the sport, which is an absolutely silly argument for numerous reasons, namely that the training methods for the elite level of the sport seem to select out players with fast-twitch muscle fibers, negating a large portion of our athlete base, and leaving us with the same athletes that we usually have access too.
Maybe people see me as too pessimistic, but it won't be as easy and painless a process as most people think. Even if we have our absolute best athletes, that usually leads to the punt and run style of play which everyone knows doesn't work at the international level.
4
Posted on 3/30/14 at 10:37 pm to crazy4lsu
You use 2002 as a benchmark for the future because it is proof that it can be reached and gives you something to work towards surpassing.
No one is saying it will be easy, I'm not sure where you pulled that from.
No one is saying it will be easy, I'm not sure where you pulled that from.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 10:46 pm to crazy4lsu
I believe my entire argument has been based on technical ability. With each generation of player we have that comes through, they are going to get better coaching. Our kids today are getting much better coaching than when I first started playing in the early-mid 90s. Our room for improvement is much greater than countries like Brazil, Argentina, Germany, etc. In the US in the 90s, good luck watching soccer regularly on TV. Until the last few years, the only soccer I was able to see was 1 MLS match a week, The USMNT games, a random Liga MX, and an occasional Champions League. Now, it's almost impossible to flip through the channels and not see something about soccer.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 10:56 pm to pvilleguru
When I was growing up, our coach was always someone's dad that didn't know shite about soccer. Heck, some of those years it was my own dad. I didn't have a proper coach until I got to Jr. High around 2000. With top quality soccer being easily accessible today and going forward, it's easier for these kids and coaches to learn tactics and technical skills.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:00 pm to Broski
But using it without context, i.e. without the caveat that it was perhaps the oddest tournament of our lifetime, as well as the last tournament before the offside rule changed (in that way pre-modern) how are we not to see it as it actually was, an outlier due to circumstance and not an indication or measuring stick of actual growth?
I think the 2010 tournament was a better indication of how far we've come, as well as laying out the reality is that there will never be an easy group in the WC ever again. Not only did we reach our ceiling as a squad that tournament, we saw exactly the type of team we could become if we continue to try to combine athleticism with decent technical play, in the form of Ghana.
What has emerged in the last ten years is a reality that isn't tortious for many nations, namely that the teams with the best DLP's usually do much better in international tournaments. The last four major tournaments featuring European clubs saw the teams with the best DLP win the tournament, and we saw one tournament where an underrated DLP in Nestor Ortigoza propelled Paraguay to the Copa America final. I could go on and on about DLP's, but when I watch MLS games, I don't see playmakers who love and want the ball on the level that is international quality. Sadly it still seems that players want to get rid of the ball downfield as soon as they get it. Admittedly I haven't watched a game I. This young season, but I don't believe the possession based philosophy has yet to enter our soccer minds. Until it does, we will still train players in what amounts to the wrong way.
At the same time I'm more than willing to be wrong about this. If someone points out a player or team that even mimics the appropriate international style, I'll happily concede. What I want more than anything is for the US to be a consistent soccer power. But I honestly don't see it happening for the next 20 years, and if at all.
I think the 2010 tournament was a better indication of how far we've come, as well as laying out the reality is that there will never be an easy group in the WC ever again. Not only did we reach our ceiling as a squad that tournament, we saw exactly the type of team we could become if we continue to try to combine athleticism with decent technical play, in the form of Ghana.
What has emerged in the last ten years is a reality that isn't tortious for many nations, namely that the teams with the best DLP's usually do much better in international tournaments. The last four major tournaments featuring European clubs saw the teams with the best DLP win the tournament, and we saw one tournament where an underrated DLP in Nestor Ortigoza propelled Paraguay to the Copa America final. I could go on and on about DLP's, but when I watch MLS games, I don't see playmakers who love and want the ball on the level that is international quality. Sadly it still seems that players want to get rid of the ball downfield as soon as they get it. Admittedly I haven't watched a game I. This young season, but I don't believe the possession based philosophy has yet to enter our soccer minds. Until it does, we will still train players in what amounts to the wrong way.
At the same time I'm more than willing to be wrong about this. If someone points out a player or team that even mimics the appropriate international style, I'll happily concede. What I want more than anything is for the US to be a consistent soccer power. But I honestly don't see it happening for the next 20 years, and if at all.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:00 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I don't believe the US will ever put the correct emphasis on technical skill to field a pool deep enough to compete with the elite teams. I see the wrong attitude prevalent in debate after debate, that all we need to do is for our best athletes to simply play the sport, which is an absolutely silly argument for numerous reasons, namely that the training methods for the elite level of the sport seem to select out players with fast-twitch muscle fibers, negating a large portion of our athlete base, and leaving us with the same athletes that we usually have access too.
I think I disagree with literally every word in this paragraph.
quote:
I don't believe the US will ever put the correct emphasis on technical skill
Ever? That is beyond absurd. Getting a guy like Klinsmann is huge for us because it shows the fact that we need to go outside our country for coaching and training expertise. After Jurgen, I fully expect for us to hire another guy with success in Europe because a lot of people love the United States and see it as a good opportunity.
I would love for us to bring Italian, German, Spanish, etc. coaches where they emphasize technical players. We are not afraid to use overseas resources. shite, we have sent kids to European academies. That is only going to get more and more prevalent. You talked about La Masia being the outlier among outliers among players to learn great technique. Well, we have a kid there. He may be too young to have any pubic hair and who knows how good he will be, but we are making moves in the right direction.
quote:
I see the wrong attitude prevalent in debate after debate, that all we need to do is for our best athletes to simply play the sport, which is an absolutely silly argument for numerous reasons, namely that the training methods for the elite level of the sport seem to select out players with fast-twitch muscle fibers, negating a large portion of our athlete base, and leaving us with the same athletes that we usually have access too.
Where did you find this argument? On the MSB? That is where posters think the answer to winning the World Cup is to put Lebron James in goal.
Our pool is only going to continue to grow as more kids play soccer and the population grows. More players will go to European academies. More players will get to play for great coaches and teams. We are getting better and better in almost all elements of soccer development.
Sure, we may never catch the stalwarts like Germany or Brazil, but we certainly have the potential to keep improving. Also, winning the World Cup is not like being on a top of a table where you have a home and an away fixture against everyone. It is a tournament where the best team does not always win, but one of the top teams usually does. We could getting closer to the top, and eventually we could pass that threshold where we are good enough to win it all if the chips fall our way.
quote:
Maybe people see me as too pessimistic, but it won't be as easy and painless a process as most people think.
No one said it is easy. Right now, we do have a significant curve to make up, but we are one of a few nations with the resources to do that.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:02 pm to pvilleguru
I'm not even saying that we will turn into perennial favorites like Brazil, Germany, etc., but I do see us closing the gap. I would be a little surprised if we don't win one of the next 14 World Cups.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:03 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
Our room for improvement is much greater than countries like Brazil, Argentina, Germany, etc.
Why is this? I straight up don't believe this argument.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:10 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Why does 2002 have more weight than 2006 or 2010?
I was just responding to the guy saying that we weren't even capable of producing a team that could get past the first knockout round.
quote:
I don't believe the US will ever put the correct emphasis on technical skill to field a pool deep enough to compete with the elite teams. I see the wrong attitude prevalent in debate after debate, that all we need to do is for our best athletes to simply play the sport, which is an absolutely silly argument for numerous reasons, namely that the training methods for the elite level of the sport seem to select out players with fast-twitch muscle fibers, negating a large portion of our athlete base, and leaving us with the same athletes that we usually have access too.
The people that are making decisions high up in US soccer aren't these types of people. These are the randos who come onto the board from time to time and ask why we suck at soccer and then give the athlete argument. Look at Tab's U-20 team. That was all small, technical hispanic kids for the most part.
quote:
Maybe people see me as too pessimistic, but it won't be as easy and painless a process as most people think.
Yes, yes I do.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:13 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Why is this? I straight up don't believe this argument.
Really? How long has Brazil and Germany had their domestic leagues? Hell, Liga MX started in the 1940s. The MLS started in 1996. Look at how much we've improved in only 18 years. MLS teams are just now getting their academies up and running. Do you honestly believe they are just teaching the kids to boot the ball down the field and chase?
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:13 pm to cwil177
quote:gave me good vibes.
Look at Tab's U-20 team.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:15 pm to cwil177
quote:
Look at Tab's U-20 team. That was all small, technical hispanic kids for the most part.
Somewhere, Randy just punched a hole in a wall.
This post was edited on 3/30/14 at 11:17 pm
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:15 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
gave me good vibes.
It made it move where I pee. Seriously. I was excited watching that team, and yes I mean sexually.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:33 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
Really? How long has Brazil and Germany had their domestic leagues?
Do you think Brazil and Germany are standing still, waiting for us to catch up to them? Hell, Brazil's main problem is the bias against European tactics, so the Brazilian's refuse to move playmaker's more suited to deeper roles. They literally could dominate for the next twenty years in terms of the quality of their pool, which is 10,000 players deep (the number of Brazilians playing abroad at any one time) if they would adopt European tactics. They actually mimicked Bayern in last summer's Confed Cup and they skullfricked Spain.
Germany reorganized their youth system in 2000, and is going to reap the benefits for the next two or three generations at the minimum.
The duration of their leagues is unimportant. It's the fact that they are always also looking to improve. It would be silly to think that the growth of the U.S. will continue to be exponential. We will continue to get better until we reach a plateau. Maybe we've already reached it.
quote:
Do you honestly believe they are just teaching the kids to boot the ball down the field and chase?
Of course not, but do you honestly think they are getting the type of nurturing they are at La Masia? That's what it took for a team like Spain, which was the most talented also-ran of all time, to get over the proverbial hump. La Masia was reorganized in the early 80's, didn't start producing major talents until ten years later, and didn't produce talents like Xavi and Iniesta until 25 years later. Are you trying to tell me that we are 25 years away from our own Xavi?
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:36 pm to cwil177
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Jurgen just became the technical director or whatever you want to call it about a month ago. He is now in charge of every level of US soccer, from the academies to the USMNT. He has stated numerous times that he wants to focus on adding more flair to our game and increasing technical ability.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:43 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
I think I disagree with literally every word in this paragraph.
Well what specifically? That soccer seems to select for athletes with slow-twitch muscle fibers? Do you know who had the fastest top speed at the WC 2010? Javier Hernandez. Do you know what his top speed would translate to in 100 meters, if we are assuming a constant rate of speed from beginning to end? A time of 11.2, which wouldn't even qualify him for the finals of the LHSAA 100M dash. And let's not discount the evidence which shows that players for Danish club FC Copenhagen have a higher prevalence of slow-twitch muscle fibers than the average Danish male. And let's not discount the strong correlation between teams that run the farthest and teams that win the most.
quote:
Getting a guy like Klinsmann is huge for us because it shows the fact that we need to go outside our country for coaching and training expertise.
It does help that Jurgen was one part of the youth revolution in Germany, but that was a part of a 100 million Euro effort on Germany's part to make sure that they were getting the most out of their young players.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:43 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Our room for improvement is much greater than countries like Brazil, Argentina, Germany, etc.
Why is this? I straight up don't believe this argument.
Pretty easy reason: Diminishing returns.
The US has a big gap it can improve and the top countries have little opportunity to improve.
Without any context, this is pretty simple. If you are #50 and want to get to #1 then there is greater room to improve than if you are #5 and want to get to #1.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:43 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Are you trying to tell me that we are 25 years away from our own Xavi?
Maybe, we don't know. However, I hope to live til I'm into my 80s, so we have 60ish years to get one. I'm not saying we will win one by 2026, but I think there's a decent chance by 2062. We already have a guy at La Masia and an 18 year old defender that Juve wants to buy.
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:46 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
He is now in charge of every level of US soccer, from the academies to the USMNT.
He's in charge of the MLS academies?
Posted on 3/30/14 at 11:51 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
He's in charge of the MLS academies
No, but I believe the USSF has something similar, unless I'm mistaken.
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