Libertarians... I have a question... - Page 12 - TigerDroppings.com

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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

But it is government (politicians) who created an agency to put down animals that they believe are not worthy of setting free, right? If it was up to libertarians, wouldn't those murdered animals be granted a fighting chance to live?

I didn't mean it as a political statement. It was just a joking way to question whether society would be charitable enough to care for those in need, since we apparently don't even engage in the mutually beneficial "charity" of adopting pets often enough.






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OMLandshark
Ole Miss Fan
Member since Apr 2009
37585 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

What is the solution?



Whatever it is, she needs to solve it.






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Willie Stroker
LSU Fan
Houston...ish
Member since Sep 2008
4388 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


So you intended to provide an example of insufficient charity. I got that. But how is that not a textbook example of breeding unsustainable dependency motivated by psychological egoism of the individual?

We do not need animals as pets. But we told ourselves that creating that dependency would enrich our lives.

If we value sustainable freedom, shouldn't we be creating less dependency?






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CptRusty
New Orleans Saints Fan
We are the ones who knock
Member since Aug 2011
4133 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

What should be the government's role in this situation?


Impartial bystander.

Maybe track the Dad down and make him poney up some cash.






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Doesn't matter. It is what it is and there is no going back to change it.

I always wonder if the govt lovers ever consider that the presence of their wonderful govt as a full time nanny actually encourages poor decision making that ends up creating the need for the nanny?

The point being, has it occurred to you that in the absence of GRAVE consequences for dumb assed choices, the rate of dumb assed choices will increase?






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ItNeverRains
LSU Fan
Franklin, TN
Member since Oct 2007
6151 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Healthy food is generally more expensive than unhealthy food, but I was referring more to getting regular checkups, cancer screenings, necessary operations, etc.


Completely bull shite that has been debunked hundreds on time on this site, but a great talking point.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Completely bull shite that has been debunked hundreds on time on this site, but a great talking point.

What part is bullshite?






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ShortyRob
LSU Fan
Huntsville, AL
Member since Oct 2008
26534 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

What part is bullshite?
The part about eating healthy being too expensive. It has been debunked REPTEATEDLY.






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BlackHelicopterPilot
LSU Fan
Top secret lab
Member since Feb 2004
32455 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

The part about eating healthy being too expensive. It has been debunked REPTEATEDLY.


This.


I eat more healthily now than I ever have...I did so in part because of costs






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

The part about eating healthy being too expensive. It has been debunked REPTEATEDLY.

Oh, I thought the quoted statement made it pretty clear that I wasn't talking about that when I said one's health depends on one's wealth. I was talking about access to things like regular checkups, cancer and heart disease screenings, medications and treatments, emergency services that don't financially destroy families. I wasn't even the one who brought up healthy eating.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

So you intended to provide an example of insufficient charity. I got that. But how is that not a textbook example of breeding unsustainable dependency motivated by psychological egoism of the individual?

We do not need animals as pets. But we told ourselves that creating that dependency would enrich our lives.

If we value sustainable freedom, shouldn't we be creating less dependency?

I'm not sure I follow your logic, so let's take it a step further. I don't like comparing people to animals, but here goes.

Some animals want to be dependent (dogs, some cats, etc.), while some animals want to be independent (birds, some cats, etc.), and it's easy to tell the difference. Not only that, but if there are more dependent animals than society wants to take care of, it's ok to put them down. Neither of those is true for people.

Should we shut down the animal shelter/hospital and let the dependent-to-caregiver situation sort itself out, while letting the injured but otherwise independent bird or cat die off? Should we let the free market handle the entirely unprofitable but necessary task of helping the independent back on their feet to become productive members of society?

So, yes, ideally we should be creating less dependency. To me, the problem is figuring out a way to do that while maintaining the societal benefits that welfare programs provide, but in a more efficient way than we currently do. I do not think that is a simple problem to solve.

Again, I hope I didn't misunderstand your point.






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PillageUrVillage
LSU Fan
Mordor
Member since Mar 2011
3069 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Having not graduated high school


Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid






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yallallcrazy
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2007
207 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

You might want to take a break from patting yourself on the back and find someone who truly had no opportunities in life.


This wasn't directed at me, but this statement brings up an idea that I always see as a foundation of the argument you are making.

Please show me, in the US, a person who legitimately has NO opportunity, other than possibly a mentally or severely physically handicapped person.

I maintain that these people essentially do not exist. Many REJECT the opportunity, but that is not the same thing as having NO opportunity.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Please show me, in the US, a person who legitimately has NO opportunity, other than possibly a mentally or severely physically handicapped person.

I maintain that these people essentially do not exist. Many REJECT the opportunity, but that is not the same thing as having NO opportunity.


I was a little harsh in what I said to Roger, but I will defend what I said in general.

Yeah, this is the land of opportunity, but it is by no means equal opportunity. And by that I don't mean anyone is being oppressed or anything like that (that is a totally different conversation). What I mean is that ANYONE can find themselves in a situation where their obligations outweigh their potential income.

Let's take the very common example of a single mother of two, dad is out of the picture or in jail or whatever, little to no family to help out. They lived within their means and did not receive any assistance until dad left or got arrested. Even with a high school diploma, what sort of job opportunities will she have? How can she ever hope to pay $10k+ for day care for 2 kids, plus a few thousand for food, a few more thousand to pay the bills, a few more thousand for rent, a few thousand more for gas. We are already around $20k/year on the very low end, and they don't even have insurance. She might be able to handle it IF she could get a job making $12/hr. She can't really get a second job because it wouldn't be worth paying additional child care. Every single dollar that comes in is spent on the bare necessities, and if ANYTHING unexpected happens she is done for. Kid has to go to the hospital, car breaks down, anything. That is one very hard-working woman doing all that she can to provide for her children. When dad was around, he had a decent job that made enough for them to live on, and the financially prudent decision to make at the time was for the mother to stay home to care for the kids. Should she instead have made the decision to get a job (even though doing so was not logical because the additional costs of child care, gas, etc. put the family budget in the red), and get the experience and training necessary to survive on her own in case the unforeseen scenario of the father being gone ever came to pass? That is assuming any sort of training would increase her earning potential at all at a time when many people can't even find a minimum-wage job.

Go ahead everyone, brush off that example as a fabricated story, or not realistic, or what have you. The fact is, some people have to do what they have to do to survive, and often those obligations throw any chance of getting a degree or forming business relationships or doing anything that might make for a better future out of the window. If making yourself believe that everyone, if they work hard and make all the "right" decisions, has an opportunity to survive without any sort of financial assistance helps you to sleep better at night for wanting a few more dollars in your pocket, then nothing I can say will change your mind.

shite happens, and I, for one, don't have a problem with the government taking my money to help people out when it does. Moochers and leaches are an unfortunate, and possibly inevitable, side-effect of any sort of welfare system. I see the glaring problems, but I can still see the necessity of the system itself.


TL;DR: The only reason you may be somewhat right in your belief that everyone has an opportunity is because safety net programs exist. It may also be true that any able-bodied person can make it without assistance if they have no dependents. Children change that situation entirely.






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yallallcrazy
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2007
207 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


No, you are missing my point.
You are starting your assessment of her issue far too late in the timeline.

I'd ask: what was her HS GPA? What did she do at age 16 to make herself more desireable in the job market? At 20? Has she learned any skills? I'm not saying her situation doesn't suck, I'm just saying it is not something that was a product of ' no opportunity'.

Second, if I were king, I'd have a true safety net--- not a pay for nothing scheme. She could go down and pick up some bread, milk, cheap ground meat, and whatever vegetables are in season at a distribution center. She'd get a certain amount based on what she needed. She and kids would not starve, but they sure as hell wouldn't be inclined to stay on that program very long. Mandatory skills training, which could be done by having some parents watch kids while others trained.

She would be required to verify that she looks for work, and there would be a clearing house where employers who need lightly skilled workers could post openings. If she was assigned for a job that met her skillset and other legitimate needs, she could not turn it down due to preference, etc.

Systems like this would keep folks alive, but also incentivize them to improve their lot and encourage them to see that their kids get a better foundation so as to be able to get off the dole. That is the big issue now-- temporary help is fine but way too many have no plan to ever get out and it is culturally accepted and even ncouraged to be on the government teat.



This post was edited on 2/19 at 4:26 pm


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ItNeverRains
LSU Fan
Franklin, TN
Member since Oct 2007
6151 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

What part is bullshite?


The part I quoted. It's a continuation of absurdity within your posts. You seem like a very nice person with a very small understanding of the role of our Republic.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

You are starting your assessment of her issue far too late in the timeline.

I'd ask: what was her HS GPA? What did she do at age 16 to make herself more desireable in the job market? At 20? Has she learned any skills? I'm not saying her situation doesn't suck, I'm just saying it is not something that was a product of ' no opportunity'.

I don't know, B student? Maybe she had to work at McDonald's through high school and after to help her mom? It could be anything, and it would be impossibly complicated and expensive to judge each person on a case by case basis, so a process with qualifications was put in place. I won't argue whether the qualification line is too high or too low, because it's somehow both at the same time. There are obvious problems and inefficiencies with the system, no doubt. I'm just saying it's easy to say everyone has opportunities when many of us have opportunities at every turn. Some people have to make choices between immediate needs and future possibilities, and the immediate need trumps every time.
quote:

Second, if I were king, I'd have a true safety net--- not a pay for nothing scheme. She could go down and pick up some bread, milk, cheap ground meat, and whatever vegetables are in season at a distribution center. She'd get a certain amount based on what she needed. She and kids would not starve, but they sure as hell wouldn't be inclined to stay on that program very long. Mandatory skills training, which could be done by having some parents watch kids while others trained.

She would be required to verify that she looks for work, and there would be a clearing house where employers who need lightly skilled workers could post openings. If she was assigned for a job that met her skillset and other legitimate needs, she could not turn it down due to preference, etc.

What sort of overhead is involved in setting up these distribution centers? Transporting goods? Tracking recipients, their needs, their benefits, their training, and their job offers? Feeding her and her kids is great, but how will their bills be paid? Is temporary insurance included?
quote:

Systems like this would keep folks alive, but also incentivize them to improve their lot and encourage them to see that their kids get a better foundation so as to be able to get off the dole. That is the big issue now-- temporary help is fine but way too many have no plan to ever get out and it is culturally accepted and even ncouraged to be on the government teat.

I can't argue that, and I agree to an extent (I will explain in the next paragraph). The problem is, your system sounds a lot like our current system, except even more resources would be required for your skills training program, free day care, and job-matching service.

I agree that the current system doesn't do enough to wean people off of it, but I don't think it's because life is grand when you're on welfare. I think a big problem is that life is even harder after you break the threshold and get cut off, and I think the gap between getting cut off and being entirely self-sufficient is large and daunting. So, that's the argument that the line is drawn too low, but I do NOT advocate giving out more free shite. I simply believe that it's a difficult problem with no obvious solution.


To summarize my line of thinking, I think there is a huge opportunity gap between a middle class person who had a head start in the real world as far as basic needs being met and being able to focus on future opportunities, and a poor person with nothing to his name besides financial obligations. And it's not an intentional oppressive gap, I think it's a fundamental financial fact that it's expensive to be poor, and cheap to be rich. I think it's hard for many people to understand this.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
89786 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:


What sort of overhead is involved in setting up these distribution centers? Transporting goods? Tracking recipients, their needs, their benefits, their training, and their job offers? Feeding her and her kids is great, but how will their bills be paid? Is temporary insurance included?


You make it sound like you believe a sizable portion of the population, able bodied folk, are absolutely hopeless without intervention.

Intervention has created part of the problem we have.






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
50648 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

quote:

What should be the government's role in this situation?
The government shouldn't have a role.
quote:

So what happens to this woman and her kids?
I'm not a psychic.
quote:

joshnorris14






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9164 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

You make it sound like you believe a sizable portion of the population, able bodied folk, are absolutely hopeless without intervention.

No, but I'm pretty sure that we have a long history of instances where private charity and local government attempts at welfare either outright failed or were swamped in times of extreme need.
quote:

Intervention has created part of the problem we have.

It is a solution to a problem (hunger, poverty, and other issues that I believe have little place in a first world nation) that exacerbated another problem (greed, selfishness, and laziness). Many things are this way, and few real-world problems have perfect solutions.






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