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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

You are one dense m'fer. I mean really dense. You dumbass, there is nothing self congratulatory about what I have done or said. It's normal behavior millions of people have experienced. I know this is going to be a shock to you, but it's normal for people to find a way out of their problems without government assistance. WTF kind of world do you live in? Are you a social worker?

First off, you are the one who volunteered the fact that you had to start over, as if to lend credence to your opinion. Secondly, there are, without doubt, millions of people whose obligations simply outweigh their capacity to build themselves up. Some got there with poor choices, but some had no choice. Some people simply need help, and I think you agree.
quote:

I would rather see 10 guilty go free any day, but any program that has 10 abusers to one success is a total and absolute failure.

Do you believe that a system of charities wouldn't have a similar "failure" rate?
quote:

I guarantee you that if you drop our welfare system, no people will starve and people will take more responsibility for their actions and those of their family. I dont expect you to understand

Malnutrition is a problem even with charities and welfare programs. Would anyone die? I don't know, but I don't see how you can guarantee nobody will.
quote:

Because you are negative and live in fear, wrapped in an ideology that encourages it. Unlike yourself, I have faith in humanity and feel people will come through without having to be forced by penalty of law to help their fellow man.

Oh right, I almost forgot that I fear something for some reason. I think there are a few things that, if every one of us had, would make us all better off. Protection/safety, which we have to an extent thanks to our military and law enforcement. Access to a basic education, which we have. I think those two things have proven to be crucial to the success of our nation. Why is it such a stretch for you guys to think that we should ensure that all of us are fed and healthy, as well? Why is this where the line is drawn?






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

You sir, are a moral idiot. You have mistaken moral preening and tired cliche' for a Constitutional understanding of the proper size and scope of government.

Right, because you know the "proper" size and scope of government, even though mankind still hasn't figured it out after thousands of years of attempts.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Wait, what? Do you really view that as efficient?

Not at all, and I don't know how you would gather that from my posts.
quote:

If you willingly embrace inefficiencies, would you also rather spend $10 unwisely in order to have $1 spent wisely?

I do not willingly embrace inefficiencies, but I see it as a necessary evil. How can we separate the truly needy from the greedy takers? Until that question is answered, I don't agree with sending that innocent man to prison because it would be too inefficient to not do so.






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Willie Stroker
LSU Fan
Houston...ish
Member since Sep 2008
4337 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Not at all, and I don't know how you would gather that from my posts

I gave you credit for favoring efficiency. Not because of anything you said, but due to my faith in people as being practical thinkers. Are you trying to talk me out of believing you to be a practical thinker?

quote:

How can we separate the truly needy from the greedy takers? Until that question is answered, I don't agree with sending that innocent man to prison because it would be too inefficient to not do so.


I don't believe we can. But we can permit all givers to give their own money according to their discretion or we can turn that choice over to politicians. Convince me that politicians are more efficient and fair in the way they spend other people's money than you and I and you'll find me on your side.




This post was edited on 2/18 at 10:02 pm


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llfshoals
Alabama Fan
Member since Nov 2010
1379 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

What should be the government's role in this situation?


Simple. If she can't support her children she has options.

Option 1 - Family support, parents, siblings, close friends. These are the people who are supposed to be there when things get tough.

Option 2 - Local charities. Local charities do far more, with far less than government ever could. Some combination of Options 1&2 are ideal.

The government's only role should be to administer the laws to prosecute said deadbeat husband once located to fulfill his obligations to his offspring.






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HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
8832 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Oh right, I almost forgot that I fear something for some reason. I think there are a few things that, if every one of us had, would make us all better off. Protection/safety, which we have to an extent thanks to our military and law enforcement. Access to a basic education, which we have. I think those two things have proven to be crucial to the success of our nation. Why is it such a stretch for you guys to think that we should ensure that all of us are fed and healthy, as well? Why is this where the line is drawn?
Is education comparable to healthcare?






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Lsupimp
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2003
30078 posts
 Online 

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


Next thing you know, you'll be telling us "or the terrorists will have won" or "do it for the children". Just stop already, you are discrediting cliches' everywhere.

And for the win, the proper size and scope of government is that which preserves HUMAN FREEDOM, not that which doles out goodies to those able-bodied sad-sacks whom you deem deserving of receiving the unearned fruits of anothers labor through government coercion and confiscation of private property.

You are unwittingly creating MORE social pathology by insulating those who engage in it from it's consequences. LBJ's good intentions morph into complete family and societal collapse in two generations (75% out of wedlock birth among black families anyone?), and doofi like you just want more of the same. YOU are the problem just as much as the person who refuses to be responsible for herself in a free society. You are also proof of exactly why we so richly deserve our fate when the bill for all these good intentions finally and tragically comes due.











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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
87557 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Do you believe that a system of charities wouldn't have a similar "failure" rate?


Depends what you call acceptable. We will never agree on that.

quote:

quote:
I guarantee you that if you drop our welfare system, no people will starve and people will take more responsibility for their actions and those of their family. I dont expect you to understand

Malnutrition is a problem even with charities and welfare programs. Would anyone die? I don't know, but I don't see how you can guarantee nobody will


You don't have malnutrition with food stamp programs???


.
quote:
Because you are negative and live in fear, wrapped in an ideology that encourages it. Unlike yourself, I have faith in humanity and feel people will come through without having to be forced by penalty of law to help their fellow man.

quote:

Why is it such a stretch for you guys to think that we should ensure that all of us are fed and healthy, as well? Why is this where the line is drawn?


We are unhealthy as hell with a vibrant welfare program. In fact, the more enhanced our welfare program the worse choices we seem to make. Our "great society" seems to be good at increasing the underclass. We have more poor than ever.



This post was edited on 2/18 at 10:34 pm


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HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
8832 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

We are unhealthy as hell with a vibrant welfare program. In fact, the more enhanced our welfare program the worse choices we seem to make. Our "great society" seems to be good at increasing the underclass. We have more poor than ever.
I think he is trying to say that because our public education system has been so helpful to people and our country, the same can be assumed for a public healthcare system.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
87557 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

I think he is trying to say that because our public education system has been so helpful to people and our country, the same can be assumed for a public healthcare system.



Well, he said fed and healthy.

The problem with that is we don't have 100% participation in public education (unless you consider paying the taxes participation) as we would with a govt takeover of the health care system.

Not everyone goes to a public school.

Poor and lower middle class children have access to government health care.



This post was edited on 2/18 at 10:48 pm


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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

But we can permit all givers to give their own money according to their discretion or we can turn that choice over to politicians. Convince me that politicians are more efficient and fair in the way they spend other people's money than you and I and you'll find me on your side.

Is it not argument enough that as a whole we don't adopt enough pets to keep from putting so many down?

If we move to a welfare via charity system, I think people would be most giving to their own communities. The poor in rich areas will benefit more than the poor in poor areas. In this regard I think government would be more fair.

As for being more efficient, I don't think government can beat charitable organizations as far as what portion of every dollar actually does some good. I can't say if that is an acceptable tradeoff for fairness.






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MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
2034 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

. I can't say if that is an acceptable tradeoff for fairness.


I hate that word. Especially when associated with government.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
87557 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:


If we move to a welfare via charity system, I think people would be most giving to their own communities. The poor in rich areas will benefit more than the poor in poor areas. In this regard I think government would be more fair.


They would move to richer areas, like people always have. In the past, poor folks moved for work, better opportunity, etc. You are making an argument to make them comfortable where they are.

If you search hard enough you will always find reasons. Some people just like the government to have this power, not local groups.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Is education comparable to healthcare?

I think I've had my fill of that argument on here, but to an extent, yes. I think a society in which all citizens are both adequately educated and healthy would be far more productive than one in which one's health is largely dependent on one's wealth.

But that is just my take on it and I know it's not a popular thought around here.






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HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
8832 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

I think a society in which all citizens are both adequately educated and healthy would be far more productive than one in which one's health is largely dependent on one's wealth.

Is it really dependent on wealth? It's not expensive to eat healthy and maintain healthy habits.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

They would move to richer areas, like people always have. In the past, poor folks moved for work, better opportunity, etc. You are making an argument to make them comfortable where they are.

If you search hard enough you will always find reasons.

I understand your argument, I really really do. And regardless of how hard I may be arguing here, I have always essentially been on the fence about the whole thing. Like I said, I've seen with my own eyes both the positive and negative results of welfare programs.

But I agree with you, there is absolutely no incentive to stop accepting assistance. Life is harder just above the welfare line than it is below it. My only hangup is that I can think of no way to determine who can't do without and who doesn't want to.






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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52218 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

The government shouldn't have a role.






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
87557 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

But that is just my take on it and I know it's not a popular thought around here.


Actually it is popular, but we disagree on the best ways to attain the results.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
7907 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Is it really dependent on wealth? It's not expensive to eat healthy and maintain healthy habits.

Healthy food is generally more expensive than unhealthy food, but I was referring more to getting regular checkups, cancer screenings, necessary operations, etc.






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Willie Stroker
LSU Fan
Houston...ish
Member since Sep 2008
4337 posts

re: Libertarians... I have a question...


quote:

Is it not argument enough that as a whole we don't adopt enough pets to keep from putting so many down?


But it is government (politicians) who created an agency to put down animals that they believe are not worthy of setting free, right? If it was up to libertarians, wouldn't those murdered animals be granted a fighting chance to live?






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