Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt? - Page 6 - TigerDroppings.com

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RollTide1987
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

How do 50 men, led by Achillies I understand, take the beach from Troy so easily?


It was Achilles and 50 of the fiercest fighters in all of Greece. That's how.






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Wild Thang
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

It was Achilles and 50 of the fiercest fighters in all of Greece. That's how.


I'm telling you, they had the higher ground with about 300 soldiers to 50. And atleast 10 of the 50 were intially killed. Total Bull shite.

Custer would have won that battle with those odds.






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corndeaux
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

Hector is fricking awesome IMO


i do not get the hector love at all.

just sticking to the movie: he never once stands up for the right thing- he doesn't turn the ships around in sparta once he learns helen is on board, he kills menelaus in cold blood during a duel to the death with paris, he allows his old father and the dumb priests to soften their defenses- and then he fights achilles one on one willingly for no good reason when trojan archers could have killed him as he is screaming HEKTOR 15 feet in front of the city gates.

he not only lacks the courage of his convictions, he also is dumb.

biggest flaw in the movie is that they tried to make both hector and achilles the hero. should have stuck with the anti war theme of the iliad and had no winners. an ancient saving private ryan






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Wild Thang
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

i do not get the hector love at all.


I don't understand that at all. He is the only one with any honor.

quote:

he doesn't turn the ships around in sparta once he learns helen is on board,


Knows his brother will be killed, and the new peace will be gone regardless. He isn't an idiot.

quote:

he kills menelaus in cold blood during a duel to the death with paris


Defending his brother, and knows the Greek King will go to war no matter what. Kinda obvious.

quote:

he allows his old father and the dumb priests to soften their defenses


Honors his father, the King. You can't piss off the King, even if you are his son.

quote:

and then he fights achilles one on one willingly for no good reason when trojan archers could have killed him as he is screaming HEKTOR 15 feet in front of the city gates.


Because he has HONOR. He realized he killed his cousin, he MUST respond to Achilles challenge. What do you think the Trojans would have thought of him if he hadn't?

They believed he could win, even if he knew he couldn't.


ETA: I really enjoy this movie. They could have made this an epic film however, but it's still an interesting flick.




This post was edited on 1/28 at 10:23 pm


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corndeaux
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

I don't understand that at all. He is the only one with any honor.


Which ultimately gets him killed and his city wiped off the face of the earth. what a hero!

quote:

Knows his brother will be killed, and the new peace will be gone regardless.


he doesn't know peace will be gone. besides he chooses his brother over the entire city of troy

quote:

Defending his brother, and knows the Greek King will go to war no matter what. Kinda obvious.


he is honorable by murdering the man whose wife his brother stole during a duel to the death? ags may still try to fight, but if menelaus is given his retribution, how much motivation will 50,000 troops have now that there is no cause for war?

quote:

Honors his father, the King. You can't piss off the King, even if you are his son.


Even if it means the death and destruction of his city? Why doesn't he honor his wife and child or any of the other citizens in Troy?

quote:

Because he has HONOR. He realized he killed his cousin, he MUST respond to Achilles challenge. What do you think the Trojans would have thought of him if he hadn't?


So he killed a man who was trying to kill him in battle and he must fight the greatest warrior in the world one on one because honor dictates it? Sounds dumb to me. I think the Trojans would have much rather had him live- hector alone saves troy.

eta- i like it too. have watched so many times and i love the fighting choreography- particularly the achilles/hector duel. i just wish they had made a more cohesive movie



This post was edited on 1/28 at 10:30 pm


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corndeaux
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


all of that last post was a long windeed way of saying- i think the character of hector is homer's rebuttal of this notion of honor. hector does what he is supposed to do, even when logic and common sense would dictate other wise.





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Wild Thang
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

all of that last post was a long windeed way of saying- i think the character of hector is homer's rebuttal of this notion of honor. hector does what he is supposed to do, even when logic and common sense would dictate other wise.


Good, cause I don't want to piece by piece it like last time.

First off, Hector does have Honor. He initially turns the boat around, but thinks things through. Agree?

2nd, he does try to get his father to send her back, commenting on how bad this is for Troy. He isn't the King. Not his descision.

3RD, you aren't grasping the point of going to fight achillies. He has to do it. The entire populace of Troy thinks he is the greatest warrior in the world. He CANT not accept.

The fact he knows he can't win but still fights is heroic.

And dammit, if he doesn't trip on the rock, he wins that fight IMO.






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Wild Thang
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

think the character of hector is homer's rebuttal of this notion of honor. hector does what he is supposed to do, even when logic and common sense would dictate other wise.



Having honor isn't the worst thing in the world FWIW. Honor isn't easy. That's why I like Hector in the movie.

And I was rooting for the Trojans even though I knew the outcome FWIW.






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corndeaux
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


I won't rehash the first two points- we'll just agree to disagree. i'm just happy to talk about this movie

quote:

3RD, you aren't grasping the point of going to fight achillies. He has to do it. The entire populace of Troy thinks he is the greatest warrior in the world. He CANT not accept.


i think my problem with the duel is how the movie sets it up. as much as i love the fight, brad pitt driving his chariot to troy and screaming HEKTOR until he comes out is so absurd. they could have done something like the book- where hector stands his ground so other people can get back to safety- and i wouldn't have a problem.

quote:

if he doesn't trip on the rock, he wins that fight


not so sure. achilles was beating him like a pinata, though hector did much better than the big dude at the beginning of the movie.






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corndeaux
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

Having honor isn't the worst thing in the world FWIW.


definitely agree. just think hector takes it too far. it makes him great, but is also his greatest weakness.






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RollTide1987
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

just think hector takes it too far. it makes him great, but is also his greatest weakness.



And it was also the downfall of Troy. When Hector led the charge against the Greeks on the beach they were a breath away from total victory over Agamemnon and his forces. Instead of driving through after the supposed death of Achilles, he calls off the fight because he killed a boy who was pretending to be Achilles.

DUDE! You have them on the ropes. You were about to drive them into the Aegean and yet you call off the dogs simply because you have a guilty conscience? Wow...







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Wild Thang
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

I won't rehash the first two points- we'll just agree to disagree. i'm just happy to talk about this movie


I hear you and agree about discussing the movie. I still stand by the fact he turned the boat around at first, and implored the King to send her back. The fact he didn't want to see his brother killed is just a natural act IMO.

quote:

i think my problem with the duel is how the movie sets it up. as much as i love the fight, brad pitt driving his chariot to troy and screaming HEKTOR until he comes out is so absurd.


OK, but the premise of what I said still stands. He has to go fight, or they lose the war IMO. If he doesn't come out at the challenge, no one would respect him except Paris.

Even though he was killed, they still had the war won until the Trojan Horse.

quote:

achilles was beating him like a pinata,


Bull shite. Hector actually hurt him, which no one was ever shown to do in the movie. Hector had him on the ropes IMO.

And it pisses me off Paris killed Achillies.






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RollTide1987
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

Hector had him on the ropes IMO.


I never got that impression. Hector was indeed giving him the best fight Achilles ever got from anyone (he even admitted as such to Priam when he snuck into the Greek camp to retrieve his son's body), but Achilles had that fight well in hand from the beginning. Hector was getting tired, putting everything he had into that fight, while Achilles was only just barely winded. The rock had very little to do with Hector's demise. Heck...Achilles even lets Hector get back up on his feet. He said to him:

"Get up! Get up Prince of Troy! I won't let a stone take my glory!"




This post was edited on 1/28 at 11:15 pm


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corndeaux
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Member since Sep 2009
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

If he doesn't come out at the challenge, no one would respect him except Paris


if he is only fighting achilles bc the people wont respect, even though he knows he will die and he knows he is the city's best hope, isn't he just being selfish? he would be fighting to uphold his reputation and not to protect his family and city*

this is where the movie missteps. they try to make him a saint, when in the text he is blood thirsty, man slaughtering, and glory seeking like all the other heroes. he fights to defend his country and there is great honor in that. but he is just as flawed as all the other characters.

*admittedly I might be projecting some of who he is in the book onto the movie character






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Wild Thang
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

Hector was indeed giving him the best fight Achilles ever got from anyone (he even admitted as such to Priam when he snuck into the Greek camp to retrieve his son's body), but Achilles had that fight well in hand from the beginning.


He was going blow for blow halfway through the fight. It was 50/50 until the rock slip IMO.

quote:

Heck...Achilles even lets Hector get back up on his feet.


Yes he did. Achilles showing honor to an honarable enemy? I believe so.






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Wild Thang
New Orleans Saints Fan
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Member since Jun 2009
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

if he is only fighting achilles bc the people wont respect, even though he knows he will die and he knows he is the city's best hope, isn't he just being selfish? he would be fighting to uphold his reputation and not to protect his family and city*




He knows the people of Troy need to believe in 'Hector'. It's like if Drew Brees said he didn't want to play against the 49ers because he knew we would lose.

What would who dat nation do?

And how can he be selfish when he knows he probably is going to die?

WHY DO YOU HATE HECTOR?






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TulaneTigerFan
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


Achilles would have made Hector his little bitch 100 times out of 100 unless they completely changed the source material. Hector stood no chance at all, which he knew prior to going out there. It's the whole point





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biglego
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


Everyone pretty much knew Achilles was almost invincible including Hector. So yes Hector knew he'd lose. Total balls to go fight him anyway.

lulz at the poster who thinks the character of Hector is a pussy.

The back and forth about these characters is what makes this simple plot such a brilliant story. The movie captured some of that but like with any movie based on a book--esp two epic ancient poems--much will be abridged.






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Rittdog
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


Ok. Better question.

How long does Maximus last in a fight with Achilles?

Of course Achilles would win...but would it be a good fight?

Unless someone really thinks Maximus could actually outsmart him...






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Wild Thang
New Orleans Saints Fan
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Member since Jun 2009
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re: Why did "Gladiator" work and "Troy" didnt?


quote:

Hector stood no chance at all, which he knew prior to going out there. It's the whole point



Of course that's the point. That is why Hector is the man for knowingly fighting him. And he still hurt him in the fight.






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