I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant - Page 8 - TigerDroppings.com

Posted byMessage
WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


It's been fun watching you pull shite out of your ass. Didn't realize so much could fit up there.


Oops, my bad, was I being too 'aggressive' for you?






Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


More spears, wiki...

I just want half these cats to answer the question...

If you live next door to a black family, can a libertarian have a BBQ where everyone wears a klan hood?






Back to top
mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:


Using the nazi flag example...i put to you a libertarian would not do that, whereas jn sees no force or threat of force therefore he is free to put a nazi flag near a Jewish persons house



This is pretty ridiculous, man. It's really a reach, I don't think you're here to learn anything about libertarianism, I think you're just purposely being disagreeable for the sake of it.

One could say that putting a hostile flag next to someone's home would be a threat, and an aggressive thing to do. Having a KKK bbq in your backyard while living next to blacks would be a threatening thing to do. This is just ridiculous thinking on your part, no matter what you're political belief there are still moral codes to follow.

If I was being as annoying as you, I'd say define 'near'. Is one mile near? Is 10 feet near? How near does this flag have to be?

This is the level of your argument; communist believe in sharing equally. The way you think you'd argue that if someone doesn't share his last plate of food equally than he is not communist. See how stupid that is?



This post was edited on 1/9 at 5:41 pm


Back to top
Joshjrn
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2008
5656 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

This isnt a courtroom...jn has thrown NAP out there...then defined it narrowly...


I didn't say it was a courtroom. I'm simply pointing out that pretending as though terms of art can be defined generally is absurd. Legal application was merely one example.

quote:

Whereas i define it as is...


Using the nazi flag example...i put to you a libertarian would not do that, whereas jn sees no force or threat of force therefore he is free to put a nazi flag near a Jewish persons house

(Just an example...)


You are free to define aggression any way you'd like. Just as you are free to define employee any way you'd like. However, you are not allowed to define aggression for the purposes of NAP any way you'd like, just as you aren't allowed to define employee any way you'd like in a courtroom. Or obtuse any way you'd like when discussing triangles. Or any of the other countless terms of art that have a specific, technical definition.

This is, literally, the first paragraph of the NAP Wikipedia article:

quote:

The non-aggression principle (NAP)—also called the non-aggression axiom, the zero aggression principle (ZAP), the anti-coercion principle, or the non-initiation of force—is a moral stance which asserts that aggression is inherently illegitimate. NAP and property rights are closely linked, since what aggression is depends on what a person's rights are.[1] Aggression, for the purposes of NAP, is defined as the initiation or threatening of violence against a person or legitimately owned property of another. Specifically, any unsolicited actions of others that physically affect an individual’s property or person, no matter if the result of those actions is damaging, beneficial, or neutral to the owner, are considered violent or aggressive when they are against the owner’s free will and interfere with his right to self-determination or the principle of self-ownership.


You act as though we're making this shite up on the fly. In NAP, aggression has a specific definition. Just as in geometry, obtuse has a specific definition. To act otherwise is nothing more than setting up your own straw-man.

To directly address your hypothetical, placing a flag on my property is not a breach of NAP, unless it was it was somehow connected to something with more substance (i.e. "the day after you see this flag go up, I'm going to kill your children if you don't do X). Trespassing and placing the flag on the Jewish person's property would be a breach of NAP. Now, would placing it on my property be "aggressive," particularly "passive aggressive"? Sure. Is it "aggressive" as defined by NAP? No, it isn't.



This post was edited on 1/9 at 5:37 pm


Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


Then answer the question...can a libertarian host that BBQ?





Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


So libertarians must be moral in your argument... does everyone else agree?





Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


I put to you that IAW NAP...

The BBQ and the nazi flag are both initiations of violence...







Back to top
mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

So libertarians must be moral in your argument... does everyone else agree?


While I would hope people act morally, that isn't what my argument was.. you seem to be really good at 'not getting it'. I said that those things could be viewed as threats or acts of aggression. The moral part at the end was just meaning that this is kind of stupid, no matter what you think politically you should still try to be moral.



This post was edited on 1/9 at 5:54 pm


Back to top
Joshjrn
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2008
5656 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

I put to you that IAW NAP...

The BBQ and the nazi flag are both initiations of violence...


I have no idea what IAW means, but your examples don't include enough information. In order to determine whether your examples fall afoul of NAP, we would need to differentiate between threats of violence and merely being offensive.

Again, if I called you an idiot or conducted a hostile takeover of your business, it's not aggression under NAP. If I buy an American flag and light it on fire, it will offend, even enrage, many people. Not a breach of NAP.

I can't help but notice that all of your examples pertain to racial insensitivity. Do you have anything else that carries a bit less emotional baggage and would be easier to dissect without writing a novel to give enough detail?






Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


You and josh are on opposite sides of the spectrum on NAP...


He says have a good BBQ, libertarian...

You state it is aggressive in violation of NAP...therefore in joshnorris's words one of you cannot be a libertarian






Back to top
Joshjrn
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2008
5656 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

You and josh are on opposite sides of the spectrum on NAP...


He says have a good BBQ, libertarian...

You state it is aggressive in violation of NAP...therefore in joshnorris's words one of you cannot be a libertarian


You gave a scenario with very little detail. So little, in fact, any listener would have to fill in the gaps with their own details. It's not terribly surprising that two people filled in the gaps with two different sets of details, thus coming to two different conclusions.






Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


I am merely pointing out gray area in the anchor (NAP) that makes or breaks someone as libertarian...

Where does liberty end and aggression begin?

It is different for everyone, so we cannot say with clarity that who is libertarian and who isn't...

Someone even used such a hard and fast example as christian, whereas the NAP is actually muddier






Back to top
mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

You and josh are on opposite sides of the spectrum on NAP...


He says have a good BBQ, libertarian...

You state it is aggressive in violation of NAP...therefore in joshnorris's words one of you cannot be a libertarian


I don't think he's really answered on this.. he's been trying to explain NAP to you.

If you're have a bunch of people dress up in KKK outfits in your backyard, your black neighbors could take that as threatening.

Like I said, you're being extremely ridiculous with this. See the above communist analogy, that is the level you're thinking on..




This post was edited on 1/9 at 6:03 pm


Back to top
Joshjrn
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2008
5656 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


That was me, and no it isn't. Again, you didn't give enough information. You created the grey. Give more information, and the grey fades into white or darkens into black.

Now, is that to say that libertarians never disagree? Of course not. Abortion is a hotly contested topic within libertarian circles. However, the issue doesn't revolve around whether an abortion is aggression (it is). The issue revolves either around whether the fetus is a person (with rights) or whether the aggression is justified (parasite theory). NAP remains solid throughout.






Back to top
IceTiger
USA Fan
OKC
Member since Oct 2007
9170 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


I don 't know what more info you would need, but i thought both your responses were well thought out and could possibly sway even the staunchest Friedmanite...

I think there is tons of gray within NAP...as in is it ok to retaliate to aggression as in the parasite example or should we truly subscribe to liberty or death...

I've heard arguments both ways and if someone says that one side of that line isn't a libertarian no matter how close they come to it, i tend to think that is being exclusive, for no reason






Back to top
joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
21044 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

as in is it ok to retaliate to aggression


I've never seen any Libertarian say anything remotely negative about self-defense.






Back to top
Joshjrn
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2008
5656 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

I think there is tons of gray within NAP...as in is it ok to retaliate to aggression as in the parasite example or should we truly subscribe to liberty or death...


I don't follow. Elaborate?

quote:

I've heard arguments both ways and if someone says that one side of that line isn't a libertarian no matter how close they come to it, i tend to think that is being exclusive, for no reason


I honestly don't see the grey you see in NAP. However, let's say I agree with you, for the sake of argument. I think we've lost sight of the original point. Libertarians, by definition, consider NAP universal. Even assuming that we can quibble over what NAP really means, as soon as you say "NAP doesn't apply to..." you're not a libertarian. That's why "fiscal libertarians" can't exist. As NAP is steeped in self ownership, you must be a civil libertarian in order to be a fiscal libertarian. To argue that one has complete ownership of their property but not their person is illogical and destroys the foundation of libertarianism.






Back to top
Swampcat
LSU Fan
Member since Dec 2003
6247 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


Miracle grow works wonders. Just sayin.





Back to top
ItNeverRains
LSU Fan
Franklin, TN
Member since Oct 2007
6088 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


How about instead of someone saying their a small govt anti imperialist & entitlement conservative, you guys talk to the Libertarian Advisory Council and see if they can borrow fiscal libertarian and get back to them.

Has a nicer ring, and you can still smirk behind their back, knowing you guys are the gate keepers






Back to top
GumboPot
LSU Fan
Saints Fan
Member since Mar 2009
23732 posts

re: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but Glenn Beck has to be a plant


quote:

Glenn Beck


Is worse that Sean Hannity.






Back to top


Back to top




//