An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like" - Page 4 - TigerDroppings.com

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treble hook
Member since Nov 2011
2310 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

We are glad you are hear to nut suck Saban and let us know how much of a pussy fan you are with every post.


He is nut sucking Saban, but...

Don't tell me you think Les is as good of a coach as Saban?






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EZE Tiger Fan
Member since Jul 2004
23736 posts
 Online 

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

Don't tell me you think Les is as good of a coach as Saban?


Again, I ask:

If Miles had the opportunity for Mulligans with the weak schedule, while his opponents had no shots of Mulligans with more difficult schedules, you don't think Miles would be in the same boat? I most certainly do. In fact, (and this will blow your mind), I think there are a few other coaches would would win 3 of 4 if they were given the same opportunities Saban is given.

I find it funny that none of the Saban lovers have yet to address this tougher standard that Miles has to live up to and/or achieve annually to reach the title game that Saban CLEARLY DOESN'T.

After watching Bama struggle with LSU and aTm this year, I can't help but wonder what would have happened to them with a schedule like LSU's, aTm's, or UF (none of which made it to Atlanta, BTW....wonder why?)






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LSU92
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2008
2004 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


EZE, you can also add this little jewel to the list. When losing a game in 2012, make sure that other undefeated media darlings like Ohio St. 2012 (who has enough media clout to replace Alabama) are on probation.





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HaloWarriors
LSU Fan
Murfreesboro, TN
Member since Feb 2010
2434 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

After watching Bama struggle with LSU and aTm this year, I can't help but wonder what would have happened to them with a schedule like LSU's, aTm's, or UF (none of which made it to Atlanta, BTW....wonder why?)


This pretty much sums it up - doesn't it. But the Saban nut suckers won't begin to acknowledge this truth.






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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
11396 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

I find it funny that none of the Saban lovers have yet to address this tougher standard that Miles has to live up to and/or achieve annually to reach the title game that Saban CLEARLY DOESN'T.


The argument usually goes as follows:



I rather enjoy the site of watching LSU fans allow themselves to accept a shitty schedule out of fear of being called chicken if they don't.







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treble hook
Member since Nov 2011
2310 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


Dude seriously. I'm not a Miles fan. But I am willing to concede he is definitely a top 5 coach. As good as Saban? Come on.

quote:

think there are a few other coaches would would win 3 of 4 if they were given the same opportunities Saban is given.


Since evreytime I say other coaches could come in and easily replace Miles, the pumpers call for a list...

Let's hear them.






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TDTGodfather
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2007
5449 posts
 Online 

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

I rather enjoy the site of watching LSU fans allow themselves to accept a shitty schedule out of fear of being called chicken if they don't.

that said, i'd rather be 11-1 than 10-2.








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The312
Northwestern Fan
I Live in The Three One Two
Member since Aug 2008
6967 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


This will be a lengthy post. Don't read it if you are troubled by exposition.

I am going to respond to GTTM because I regard him as a fairly sober, rational human. One who who is capable of carrying on a topical, measured dialogue. I do this knowing full well that my response will subject me to the inane flailings of deluded zealots here. So be it.

quote:

I like Miles but would replace him instantaneously if anyone here could guarantee a replacement that would do better.


The notion of a "guaranteed" improvement is fantastical. No coaching search ever has a "guaranteed" result. If Miles were perennially finishing 8-4, there would be no "guarantee" that his successor would do better. If Miles were perennially recording a 6-6 mark, there would be no "guarantee" that his successor would improve that mark. Indeed, history demonstrates this axiom. Archer was abysmal, and yet there was still no "guarantee" his successor would be better. Hallman was, in fact, worse.

(And of course, it's also true that one often doesn't know precisely which coaches are available for hire until the search commences. To wit, no one knew Saban was interested in the LSU job when DiNardo was fired in 1999. This uncertainty as to available candidates makes it yet more difficult to "guarantee" any particular hire or to exclude any particular hire from consideration a priori.)

If coaching replacements were premised on "guarantees," they would quite literally never occur.

Rather, the proper metric is risk-reward. Do you believe that prospects of improving the program through a new hire outweigh the risk that the new hire will perform at levels below that of his predecessor? Restated, what is the probability that the new hire will improve the program and what is the magnitude and value of that improvement? This analysis is fairly straightforward and easy to apply in cases where a team is 3-8. It becomes much more difficult to apply in instances where a program is consistently successful, yet has not fulfilled the zenith of its potential.

Applying the algorithm to Miles and LSU, it is worth noting again precisely what you conceded in your original post: that Alabama is a better program than LSU right now. Moreover, sane people will agree that Saban is a better coach than Miles. (The modfier "sane" is quite intentional - I know there are marginal ideologues who will still claim that Miles is "better" even if Saban hoists his third NC trophy in four years.) I've recited the litany of evidence before, but I'll do it again for the sake of thoroughness: NC's: Saban 3 Miles 1; SECCG's: Saban 3 Miles 2; Overall Undefeated Seasons: Saban 1 Miles 0; Undefeated Regular Seasons: Saban 2 Miles 1; Head to Head: Saban 4 Miles 3 (4-2 in last six excluding Saban's first year at Bama when he had none of his recruits; 2-0 in the last two games); Recruiting: Alabama's consensus class rating has exceeded LSU's in each year of Saban's Alabama tenure.

All objective indicia favor Saban and Alabama.

So, the proper formulation of the question is as follows: Given that LSU is the second best program in the SEC West, given that Saban is a better coach than Miles, and given that this state of affairs appears unlikely to change in the near future, is it worth the risk of hiring a new coach in order to give LSU the potential opportunity to surpass Alabama, become the preeminent program in the SEC, and become an NC dynasty?

Put another way: with Miles as the head coach at LSU, evidence suggests that LSU will remain second best to Alabama, albeit by a fairly narrow margin. Hiring a new coach would offer the possibility that LSU could surpass Alabama, though it also entails the risk that LSU could decline, perhaps significantly.

If you don't believe that hiring a new coach is worth the risk, I think you have to (a) resign yourself to being happy with second best in the SEC West for the foreseeable future; (b) await the day that Miles improves and is able to supercede Saban and Alabama - dare I say that this position requires "rampant speculation and hope"; or (c) pray that Saban leaves Alabama.

Hypothetically, if LSU were a privately held concern and I owned one hundred percent of the voting stock, I would gamble. It's my personal view that the modern LSU has the fiscal resources, facilities, professionalism, and recruiting base to become a national championship dynasty. I believe there are a range of coaches who could succeed here on a national stage.

However, I also recognize that, realistically, the LSU AD isn't going to voluntarily fire Miles so long as he is winning games. Consequently, the immediate future of the program will likely be as follows: LSU will retain Miles, Miles will continue to have good or even very good W-L records, Saban will remain a better coach than Miles overall, Alabama will remain a better program than LSU in the aggregate, LSU will be denied a dynasty while Alabama collects its crystal trophies.

That's not intended to be incendiary propoganda and shouldn't be recieved as such. It's just what has happened of late: LSU has had good seasons, Alabama has established a national championship dynasty.

This pattern will continue until either Miles or Saban departs, at which point the quality of the new hire will dictate the dynamics of the rivalry.

In the meantime - because ultimately it is the only option at my disposal - I'll continue to make my ragged sojourn to Tiger Stadium and various college towns throughout the south, I'll pour money into the program and bourbon down my gullet, I'll cheer as loudly as I can at games, and I'll hope against hope that the hand of genius belatedly annoints Miles and that he reverses the current hierarchy at the top of the SEC West.

I really have nothing else to say on this topic. On to the bowl and recruiting.



This post was edited on 11/29 at 2:03 pm


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THEdeathvalley
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Sep 2010
2518 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


Your post was funny, and I enjoyed it.

But to be honest, I don't want Les Miles to be Saban like. Bama players play for a general. They know if they mess up, they are done. Les is like the Dad of the team. Each style works in it's on way. You can deny LSU players love and give Les their all. And you can't deny Saban gets the most out of his players either.






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LSU92
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2008
2004 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

I've recited the litany of evidence before, but I'll do it again for the sake of thoroughness: NC's: Saban 3 Miles 1; SECCG's: Saban 3 Miles 2; Overall Undefeated Seasons: Saban 1 Miles 0; Undefeated Regular Seasons: Saban 2 Miles 1; Head to Head: Saban 4 Miles 3 (4-2 in last six excluding Saban's first year at Bama when he had none of his recruits; 2-0 in the last two games); Recruiting: Alabama's consensus class rating has exceeded LSU's in each year of Saban's Alabama tenure.


These numbers are true, however I have one simple problem with them. They change drastically if ESPN did not reward Alabama a mulligan last year. LSU, not Alabama, won the 11/5 game. ESPN makes up crap such as "the eye test." Let me ask you, what did ESPN's eye test say about Texas A&M being a 14 point dog to alabama? Did the eye test lie to them?

The rematch should have never happened. Some will argue that LSU lost by 21 points. I would argue that in 1996 Bobby Bowden lost his rematch game for the title by 36 points. In 1996, Bobby Bowden took a back seat to nobody in the coaching ranks. The coach with the most D-1 wins in history was skull dragged by 36. It wasn't because he sucked and it wasn't because Florida was that much better.






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treble hook
Member since Nov 2011
2310 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


Great read.

quote:

If you don't believe that hiring a new coach is worth the risk, I think you have to (a) resign yourself to being happy with second best in the SEC West for the foreseeable future; (b) await the day that Miles improves and is able to supercede Saban and Alabama - dare I say that this position requires "rampant speculation and hope"; or (c) pray that Saban leaves Alabama.


Wow. So there can be poster that actually posts logic as opposed to "Miles is the best coach ever blah blah blah"

This is exactly what I've been saying for two days. We will not be (or there is a very small chance) that we will be the top team in the SEC with Miles at LSU and Saban at Bama.






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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
11396 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

The notion of a "guaranteed" improvement is fantastical. No coaching search ever has a "guaranteed" result. If Miles were perennially finishing 8-4, there would be no "guarantee" that his successor would do better. If Miles were perennially recording a 6-6 mark, there would be no "guarantee" that his successor would improve that mark. Indeed, history demonstrates this axiom. Archer was abysmal, and yet there was still no "guarantee" his successor would be better. Hallman was, in fact, worse.

If coaching replacements were premised on "guarantees," they would quite literally never occur.


I agree almost entirely with this...except for the never happen business. But I have a feeling you're getting there, so I'll wait.

quote:

Rather, the proper metric is risk-reward.


Yes...agreed.

quote:

This analysis is fairly straightforward and easy to apply in cases where a team is 3-8. It becomes much more difficult to apply in instances where a program is consistently successful, yet has not fulfilled the zenith of its potential.


Without question, and it's essentially my point above. Given the position of our program, I find the room for improvement to be so slight that the risk of making a change is far greater than the potential slight, though important, improvement. But I want to see where you're going, so let's continue...

quote:

Applying the algorithm to Miles and LSU, it is worth noting again precisely what you conceded in your original post: that Alabama is a better program than LSU right now.


I do think that, though I think it's very VERY narrow to be dead honest. A few minor things go in a different direction, and we're very likely talking about LSU in the driver's seat for back to back titles. But yes, I'd say BAMA would be the only program could honestly say they covet at this point...assuming they are basing their covetousness on wins and losses.

quote:

Moreover, sane people will agree that Saban is a better coach than Miles.


Yeah...I'd agree. To say this isn't not a slight on Miles, though. Saban may, at the end of the day, be in the same legendary class at Rockne, Bryant, etc. I'd say it's a hell of a compliment to say Miles is more than holding his own with Saban as a contemporary.

quote:

I've recited the litany of evidence before, but I'll do it again for the sake of thoroughness: NC's: Saban 3 Miles 1; SECCG's: Saban 3 Miles 2;


The numbers don't lie, though I do ask that they be represented equally. there are fans here who essentially give Miles no credit for the SEC Title last year because of the egg laid in the BCSNCG...despite the historic run that got them there. On the other hand, Saban's falling backwards into the 2001 SEC Title during a season when they got curbed stomped by Florida at home at took a loss so bad to ole Miss at home that fans were calling radio stations declaring that the Yankee Big 10 coach needed to go...all of which was repeated by Saban himself at his weekly radio show. It certainly counts, no doubt...and I enjoyed the hell out of it! But I just wanted it noted that if Saban get hailed a hero for 2001, Miles shouldn't be labeled a goat for the 2012 SEC Title.

quote:

Head to Head: Saban 4 Miles 3 (4-2 in last six excluding Saban's first year at Bama when he had none of his recruits


I have no interest in giving Saban a pass for year one any more than I'd not give him credit for his early success at LSU with Dinardo's guys. Saban is up 4-3...period.

quote:

Recruiting: Alabama's consensus class rating has exceeded LSU's in each year of Saban's Alabama tenure.


Yeah, but this is one that I'm not nearly as sure about. Not that I think the services are all wrong...they're not. I just don't draw a huge difference between the top group of teams in the list each year. Truth is, both BAMA and LSU are loading up year in and year out with some of the bluest of the blue chip high school football players in the country.

quote:

All objective indicia favor Saban and Alabama.


Even with the few nits I picked above, I'd be happy conceding this point anyway.

quote:

So, the proper formulation of the question is as follows: Given that LSU is the second best program in the SEC West, given that Saban is a better coach than Miles, and given that this state of affairs appears unlikely to change in the near future, is it worth the risk of hiring a new coach in order to give LSU the potential opportunity to surpass Alabama, become the preeminent program in the SEC, and become an NC dynasty?


Fine...but this could still be true even with Miles winning another title, or two if BAMA keeps this pace. Even if BAMA won 2 out of every 3 with LSU taking the third, on average LSU would still average second best overall right? I see you're going to ask the question below, so I'll wait to answer there, but I think you see where I'm going.

quote:

Hypothetically, if LSU were a privately held concern and I owned one hundred percent of the voting stock, I would gamble./quote]

I wouldn't, because while I recognize that there is room for improvement, the room is just so tiny that the risk of making a mistake is simply too great. As I pointed out above, even if you concede #1 to BAMA over the long haul, that does not mean that #2 can not have incredible success, regardless of how you define it. And considering I don;t think BAMA is that far out in front, it really doesn't warrant the risk.

[quote]Consequently, the immediate future of the program will likely be as follows: LSU will retain Miles, Miles will continue to have good or even very good W-L records, Saban will remain a better coach than Miles overall, Alabama will remain a better program than LSU in the aggregate, LSU will be denied a dynasty while Alabama collects its crystal trophies.


That's wholly speculative, but it's not a terrible assessment. I tend to see it as a very close swing back and forth between the two monster programs. To be blunt, I don't think there would be much separation AT ALL with an equitable schedule...but that's another topic.

quote:

LSU has had good seasons, Alabama has established a national championship dynasty.


2011 was historically good for LSU...right up until the end. One loss just doesn't relegate that season to "good" for me.

quote:

This pattern will continue until either Miles or Saban departs, at which point the quality of the new hire will dictate the dynamics of the rivalry.


I think this is the case for all new hires in the SEC. If AU brings in a monster, it will be felt in Tuscaloosa...and Baton Rouge...and College Station, etc. Same with TENN.

quote:

I'll continue to make my ragged sojourn to Tiger Stadium and various college towns throughout the south, I'll pour money into the program and bourbon down my gullet, I'll cheer as loudly as I can at games, and I'll hope against hope that the hand of genius belatedly annoints Miles and that he reverses the current hierarchy at the top of the SEC West.


I'm a bit more optimistic, obviously...and not a drinker, but I'll certainly be out there pulling for the Tigers in such a manner that leaves my voice unsealable until Tuesday the follow week.

I appreciate the post, even if no one else reads it.






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The312
Northwestern Fan
I Live in The Three One Two
Member since Aug 2008
6967 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

GeauxTigerTM


quote:

I wouldn't, because while I recognize that there is room for improvement, the room is just so tiny that the risk of making a mistake is simply too great. As I pointed out above, even if you concede #1 to BAMA over the long haul, that does not mean that #2 can not have incredible success, regardless of how you define it. And considering I don;t think BAMA is that far out in front, it really doesn't warrant the risk.


Excellent rejoinder. Overall, you've articulated the rational counterposition to the argument I advanced.

Geaux Tigers.






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GeauxTigerTM
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2006
11396 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

Excellent rejoinder. Overall, you've articulated the rational counterposition to the argument I advanced.


Yeah...so suck everyone else! I say they simply pin this exchange at the top of the board, delete all the rest of this crap and call it a day...you?

quote:

Geaux Tigers.


Backatcha!

BTW, I had to edit the shite out of my response because I was hit with a too many characters warning that would not allow me to post it! haha How's that for TLDR?



This post was edited on 11/29 at 3:04 pm


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EZE Tiger Fan
Member since Jul 2004
23736 posts
 Online 

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

EZE, you can also add this little jewel to the list. When losing a game in 2012, make sure that other undefeated media darlings like Ohio St. 2012 (who has enough media clout to replace Alabama) are on probation.


While I am feeling your sarcasm, this clearly falls into the "luck" factor that Sabanistas refuse to believe exist.






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getback
LSU Fan
Member since Dec 2011
2199 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


Your OP could have been condensed and easier to read with the following list:

Win two more rings (BCS Champions, not 2nd nationally), wait.. after January make that 3 more..

Win another SEC Title, wait.. after Saturday, make it 2 more..


That's about it.. He'll be just like Saban!






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Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2012
10700 posts
 Online 

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

I knew right then and there that his total lack of a killer instinct was the opposite of everything I like in a coach and have not liked him ever since.


Yeah, he really shelled up in the 2007 Florida game.






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Thib-a-doe Tiger
LSU Fan
Member since Nov 2012
10700 posts
 Online 

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


Why don't the Saban lovers ever talk about the insane amount of luck he has had in getting to the BCS championship game? If Oklahoma in 2003 doesn't lose to huge underdog Kansas St, LSU doesn't go. Last year if Oklahoma St doesn't lose to huge underdog Iowa State Alabama doesn't make it. If Kansas St doesn't lose to 4-4 Baylor this season, Alabama doesn't make it.





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charate
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Feb 2012
195 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


quote:

EZE Tiger Fan


do you fall down a lot?






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xXLSUXx
New Orleans Saints Fan
New Orleans, LA
Member since Oct 2010
8188 posts

re: An Updated List Of Things Miles Needs To Do To Become More "Saban Like"


Eat babies.





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