After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers - Page 5 - TigerDroppings.com

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schexyoung
LSU Fan
Deaf Valley
Member since May 2008
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re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Bane-whom very much fits the mold of someone taking orders the entire time


Not really.... Bane agreed to assualt Gotham and Batman out of respect for Talia and there strange prisnor protector relationship.

It clear Bane IS the LOS and not Talia. They are his men and they are willing to die in a plane for him. Bane is a excellent strategist and it shows through out the unfolding of attacks on Wayne and Gotham.

Bottom line... Talia providing the motivation to attack Gotham and Wayne does nothing to undercut Bane running the LOS.

There is no #1 and #2 in the Talia Bane relationship. Bane runs the LOS and Taila provides the motivation to attack Gotham and Wayne.






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RonBurgundy
LSU Fan
Whale's Vagina(San Diego)
Member since Oct 2005
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re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:


It clear Bane IS the LOS and not Talia



Not at all. Talia in her monologue explains the entire order of events-1)She escapes prison 2)LOS comes back to prison 3) Bane is banished 4) Talia leaves her father 5) Ra's dies Talia takes control of LOS puts Bane in day to day command plans Gotham attack.



quote:

Talia providing the motivation to attack Gotham and Wayne does nothing to undercut Bane running the LOS.


How does that not have nothing to do with Bane, he was there to "fulfill Ra's destiny" which was LOS intention to destroy Gotham-Talia's plan. She was the source of everything. Without Talia, Bane doesn't have the LOS support.






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RonBurgundy
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re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Screen time is everything


Go watch any horror film. Screen time isn't everything.


quote:

Can you name more than three action movies where the main antagonist doesn't introduce themselves until the final 15 minutes of the movie?


She wasn't introduced in the final 15 mins of the movie, she was there from the beginning, where clues to her being the villain were sprinkled throughout the movie.It's not the same as her "first appearing" on screen.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Not at all. Talia in her monologue explains the entire order of events-1)She escapes prison 2)LOS comes back to prison 3) Bane is banished 4) Talia leaves her father 5) Ra's dies Talia takes control of LOS puts Bane in day to day command plans Gotham attack.



quote:

Talia: My mother name me Talia before she was killed, the way I would have been killed if not for my protector - Bane. I climbed out of the Pit, I found my father, and brought him back to exact terrible vengeance. But by that time, the prisoners and doctor had already done their work to my friend, my protector. The League took us in, trained us. But my father could not accept Bane. He saw only a monster whose very existence was a reminder of the Hell he'd left his wife to die in. He excommunicated Bane from the League of Shadows - his only crime was that he loved me. I could not forgive my father....until YOU murdered him.

Batman: He was trying to kill millions of innocent people.

Talia: "Innocent" is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience. You see, it's the slow knife - the knife that takes it's time, the knife that waits years without forgetting, then slips quietly between the bones, that's the knife that cuts deepest.


Where in that monologue does she say that she took control of the League of Shadows and put Bane in charge of the assault on Gotham? Is it implied? I don't think so. She simply says that SHE was there to destroy Gotham as punishment for Batman killing her father. Maybe Bane is the leader of the League of Shadows and, because he loves her so much, he goes along with her idea to attack Gotham?

quote:

Without Talia, Bane doesn't have the LOS support.


And without SPECTRE, and the head of its organization, Grant and Dr. No aren't two of the greatest main antagonists in the history of action films. The main antagonist is the protagonist's main focal point throughout a film. Bane, and not Talia, takes up Batman's attention for the vast majority of the film.






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iwyLSUiwy
Southern Fan
I'm your huckleberry
Member since Apr 2008
21187 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

How can a villain be the MAIN villain in a film if he/she is rarely seen? Screen time is everything


I agree Bane is the real villian but thats completely untrue.

Anthony Hopkins won best actor for his Hannibal Lector role despite being having only like 15 minutes of screen time. It's how you use the time is what counts.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Go watch any horror film. Screen time isn't everything.



Oh...you mean horror movies like Halloween, A Nightmare on Elm Street, and Friday the 13th - movies where the main antagonist is known to us throughout the entire film? Also...a lot of those slasher movie villains, while their identities are unknown due to the fact that they are wearing some kind of mask, do have a lot of screen time in the film itself. It's just that they don't show their faces until the middle of the third act.

quote:

She wasn't introduced in the final 15 mins of the movie, she was there from the beginning, where clues to her being the villain were sprinkled throughout the movie.It's not the same as her "first appearing" on screen.



But did she do anything particularly evil until the final 15 minutes of the movie? That's the point. If she didn't, how can she be the main antagonist when you have a guy like Bane wrecking shite and killing people for the first 2 1/2 hours?






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Anthony Hopkins won best actor for his Hannibal Lector role despite being having only like 15 minutes of screen time. It's how you use the time is what counts.



He wasn't the main antagonist though. Buffalo Bill was. While Hannibal Lecter was most definitely evil, he wasn't the film's main villain.







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schexyoung
LSU Fan
Deaf Valley
Member since May 2008
3282 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


Exactly. Bane is the leader of LOS and is avenging the death Ra's out of his love for Talia.

I'm sure Talia and Bane had a means of communication during the 5-8 years she infiltrated Wayne Enterprises, but Bane ran the LOS and its operations.

I will agree that I did not like Bane's physical "death", but Batman had already defeated him so it was a moot point.






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iwyLSUiwy
Southern Fan
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Member since Apr 2008
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re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


I knew you were going to say that

Levine would have been up for best actor and Hopkins for supporting if that were the case.



This post was edited on 12/5 at 4:55 pm


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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Levine would have been up for best actor and Hopkins for supporting if that were the case.



How does that make sense when Heath Ledger, clearly the main villain of The Dark Knight, won Best Supporting Actor?






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RonBurgundy
LSU Fan
Whale's Vagina(San Diego)
Member since Oct 2005
8847 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

The League took us in, trained us. But my father could not accept Bane. He saw only a monster whose very existence was a reminder of the Hell he'd left his wife to die in. He excommunicated Bane from the League of Shadows - his only crime was that he loved me. I could not forgive my father....until YOU murdered him.



So Bane is out of the League and Talia is clearly in. Ra's dies and Bane is accepted back in. Who do you think let him back in? Talia-the real leader of the LoS. This is implied.

ETA: Go to the batman wiki LINK

quote:

The League of Shadows was an organization led by Ra's al Ghul in the film Batman Begins and led by Talia al Ghul in The Dark Knight Rises.


quote:

Bane was a terrorist allied with the League of Shadows.




This post was edited on 12/5 at 5:23 pm


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RonBurgundy
LSU Fan
Whale's Vagina(San Diego)
Member since Oct 2005
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re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

But did she do anything particularly evil until the final 15 minutes of the movie? That's the point. If she didn't, how can she be the main antagonist when you have a guy like Bane wrecking shite and killing people for the first 2 1/2 hours?


Easy like this guy








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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Easy like this guy



There are a few big differences here. 1) Two different kinds of movies. The Usual Suspects was a mystery/suspense thriller whose main plot was the question, "Who is Kaiser Soze?" 2) Kaiser Soze, despite not being revealed until the final 30 seconds of the movie, was known to be the main antagonist for the entirety of the film. 3) There was no other character running amuck, killing people, or wrecking shite other than the film's main protagonists/anti-heroes/bad men. Kaiser Soze did much of the killing, wrecking, and explosions, despite the fact that he did it all almost entirely off-screen.

In conclusion, Kaiser Soze was the main focal point of that movie - just like Bane. Even though we didn't know his true identity until the end of the film, we knew he was there somewhere and we knew he was behind the deaths of most of the main characters and the driving force behind the events of the film.






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RonBurgundy
LSU Fan
Whale's Vagina(San Diego)
Member since Oct 2005
8847 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Kaiser Soze was the main focal point of that movie


Incorrect. Kujan's investigaton of Keaton was the main focal point of the film. The film was about how evil Keaton actually was, if at all really as he was portayed as likable in half the film. What Kujan wanted to know is if Keaton = Soze, so he could arrest Keaton.


Also see my ETA including the Batman wiki-as Talia is clearly the leader of the LoS.



This post was edited on 12/5 at 5:32 pm


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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

So Bane is out of the League and Talia is clearly in. Ra's dies and Bane is accepted back in. Who do you think let him back in? Talia-the real leader of the LoS. This is implied.



So why didn't we see Talia in Batman Begins with the other members of the League of Shadows when Bruce was being trained by Ra's al Ghul? I think it is also implied that after Bane was excommunicated Talia, who said she could never forgive her father, ran out on him and didn't come back until after he was killed.

quote:

Go to the batman wiki


As if this is an official source. Any average joe can edit that.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Kujan's investigaton of Keaton was the main focal point of the film.


Incorrect. It started out as the main focal point of the film but deviated once Kaiser Soze's name was dropped. Keaton evolved into Kaiser Soze in Kujan's mind because he was too obsessed with getting to him to not see that the answers he was seeking were literally staring him in the face.






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RonBurgundy
LSU Fan
Whale's Vagina(San Diego)
Member since Oct 2005
8847 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

As if this is an official source. Any average joe can edit that.


quote:

The League of Shadows was an organization led by Ra's al Ghul in the film Batman Begins and led by RollTide1987 in The Dark Knight Rises.


quote:

So why didn't we see Talia in Batman Begins with the other members of the League of Shadows when Bruce was being trained by Ra's al Ghul?


If the entire LoS hangs out in one building then they are really doing their job are they? Also if they are all killed in BB how did Ra's have more men in BB?







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RonBurgundy
LSU Fan
Whale's Vagina(San Diego)
Member since Oct 2005
8847 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

It started out as the main focal point of the film but deviated once Kaiser Soze's name was dropped


Just like how Bane started off as the main villain until the reveal of Talia.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

Just like how Bane started off as the main villain until the reveal of Talia.



You may have a point if Talia had been revealed halfway through the movie but since she didn't reveal herself as a baddie until the final 15 minutes it's very difficult to call her the main villain. The main antagonist, just in case you need a reminder on the definition, is the character whom the protagonist clashes with and comes into conflict with the most throughout the duration of a story. Bane is that character.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Pensacola, Florida
Member since Nov 2009
22743 posts

re: After the 2nd viewing of each, TDKR >>>>>> Avengers


quote:

If the entire LoS hangs out in one building then they are really doing their job are they?


But if Talia was such an important part of his organization, you would think she would be right there beside him in Batman Begins. Of course, it's also possible that she threw a hissy fit and left the League of Shadows after Bane was excommunicated and only came back after her father died.

quote:

Also if they are all killed in BB how did Ra's have more men in BB?


A lot of them were already in Gotham by that point. Ra's al Ghul even says in Wayne Manor, "You are defending a city so corrupt we have infiltrated every level of its infrastructure." That takes time.








This post was edited on 12/5 at 6:10 pm


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