Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical? - Page 5 - TigerDroppings.com

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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Godfather1


That's what I thought.






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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31845 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


Yeah, but it's just your opinion that none of this stuff is just an opinion. Which makes it all pretty much a matter of opinion. Don't you see?





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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31845 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

That's what I thought.


What? That I'm trolling a troll?

You'd be correct.






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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Yeah, but it's just your opinion that none of this stuff is just an opinion. Which makes it all pretty much a matter of opinion. Don't you see?



You're coward.

None of this is an opinion. Factual observations are different than opinions. Tell me what of the following is not accurate. Thanks.

Do we not treat soldiers better today than during Nam?

Is Gulf of Tonkin not officially recognized as a lie?

And was there not a negative perception by the masses during/after Nam?

So none of those are really an opinion. They're factual observations.

And me explaining to you how a negative perception can be created by a small % of people behaving badly is not an opinion either, it's an attempt to help you see.

I'll try once more. If there are 6 very dirty plays in a football game, that's a lot. That team will almost certainly be called dirty for the way only 6 of 60 people behaved. Do you follow?

I thought the military was full of MEN, so be a man instead of a coward and tell me specifically what is not accurate. Appreciate it boss.



This post was edited on 11/25 at 12:13 am


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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31845 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?




Shooting fish in a barrel, man.

G'nite.






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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:



Shooting fish in a barrel, man.

G'nite.



What a coward.






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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31845 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Do we not treat soldiers better today than during Nam?


Quantify this statement. Observations aside, put some numbers to it proving your case.

It's not what you know. It's what you can prove. All the rest is just bull shite.







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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:


Quantify this statement. Observations aside, put some numbers to it proving your case.

It's not what you know. It's what you can prove. All the rest is just bull shite.


You've spent too much time in 'online forumland'. There is no way to quantify what you're asking and you know it. If you really believe we treated soldiers better during Nam then God help you.

For the 3rd time, please specifically tell me what of the following is inaccurate. These aren't simply my opinions, but observations from history. There is a difference. And regarding my point about the football game and dirty plays, I think you know what I'm saying in that analogy, you just don't want to concede anything.

Do we not treat soldiers better today than during Nam?

Is Gulf of Tonkin not officially recognized as a lie?

And was there not a negative perception by the masses during/after Nam?

So none of those are really an opinion. They're factual observations.

And me explaining to you how a negative perception can be created by a small % of people behaving badly is not an opinion either, it's an attempt to help you see.

I'll try once more. If there are 6 very dirty plays in a football game, that's a lot. That team will almost certainly be called dirty for the way only 6 of 60 people behaved. Do you follow?



This post was edited on 11/25 at 12:27 am


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Godfather1
Army Fan
SE Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
31845 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


How about you answer the fricking question?

Give me some quantifiable proof that troops today are treated better than they were in 1969. How do you know (other than what you've heard) how troops were treated then? You weren't exactly around to observe it. And it requires more than anecdotal evidence to back up such a blanket statement.

Oh, and BTW, I have yet to see an official admission of any kind that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie. If you have something official, perhaps you'd be kind enough to post it. TIA.

I am going to sleep now. I'll check your response in the morning. G'nite.



This post was edited on 11/25 at 12:31 am


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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

How about you answer the fricking question?

Give me some quantifiable proof that troops today are treated better than they were in 1969. How do you know (other than what you've heard) how troops were treated then? You weren't exactly around to observe it. And it requires more than anecdotal evidence to back up such a blanket statement.




So now one thing I said was an opinion (which is based on histories perception).

Yet you said everything I said was an opinion and bull shite.. interesting.

I asked you to specifically dissect the points I made, and yet you only chose one. And now you're telling me to "answer the fricking question"... hmm somebody being a bit one sided here? Superiority complex maybe?

You know damn well you can't quantify peoples feelings. If a strong historical perspective isn't enough evidence I don't know what to tell you.. it is a fact that there was more negative behavior towards military during the Nam years than nowadays, that is really undeniable.



This post was edited on 11/25 at 12:40 am


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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Oh, and BTW, I have yet to see an official admission of any kind that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie. If you have something official, perhaps you'd be kind enough to post it. TIA.



Really? This was deemed a fraud when information was declassified. This is a widely accepted truth, I've not heard anyone deny it in a long time.. I know you're looking for a link from one of the major news outlets in the U.S, sorry they don't do those type of stories. I thought the Gulf of Tonkin truth was just built into the modern mind, apparently I was wrong.






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Ryne Sandberg
USA Fan
Team Am Mart
Member since Apr 2009
18437 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


Ok, I'll jump in:

Do we not treat soldiers better today than during Nam?

quote:

War leaves those who fought with scars, but the scars Vietnam veterans bear are different from those who fought in other wars for the United States. In no other conflict were those who fought in it scorned by their fellow Americans upon their return. The latest Gallup poll shows 72% of Americans believe that the people of the United States have not treated Vietnam veterans well in the years since the war. This is slightly higher than 1990, when a similar Gallup poll found the same opinion expressed by 69% of those polled.

- LINK

Is Gulf of Tonkin not officially recognized as a lie?

I think you need to research this more. The USS Maddox was fired on. Not necessarily first, but it fired first as warning shots. Also, if you are dim enough to believe that the Gulf of Tonkin incident led directly to the Vietnam War, then, wow. The UN was about to impose sanctions...etc.

And was there not a negative perception by the masses during/after Nam?

Indicator Pre-TET Post-TET Change
Approves Johnson's handling of job as president 48% 36% -12
Approves Johnson's handling of Vietnam 39% 26% -13
Regards war in Vietnam as a mistake 45% 49% +4
Proportion classifying themselves as "hawks" 60% 41% -19








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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Ryne Sandberg


You kind of made my points for me, while attempting to oppose them. What you posted does show there was a negative perception during Nam. And you do realize 1990 was over 20 years ago.. what does that have to do with how we treat soldiers today.

I stand by my observation of history, that we treated the military worse during/after Nam that we treat military today. (It's night and day).

quote:

Not necessarily first


Wait. So you don't really know who was fired on first?... Oh.

quote:

if you are dim enough to believe that the Gulf of Tonkin incident led directly to the Vietnam War, then, wow


Hmm.. Did I say that? Or did I say it was a reason we were allowed to go to war. The incident was influential in garnering support for the war. Would we have had the war without the incident, absolutely. They were dead set on having it, the observation that the incident helped get supporters for the war is really unquestionable.




This post was edited on 11/25 at 1:27 am


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Ryne Sandberg
USA Fan
Team Am Mart
Member since Apr 2009
18437 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

You kind of made my points for me

You're welcome?
quote:

while attempting to oppose them.

Well, I wasn't. I thought you wanted some numbers, so I looked them up.
quote:

I stand by my observation of history, that we treated the military worse during/after Nam that we treat military today. (It's night and day).

I'm not sure who's arguing with you on that point, but they dumb.

quote:

Wait. So you don't really know who was fired on first?... Oh.

We fired "warning shots" according to the Congressional Commission and were fired directly upon on August 2nd. There were multiple torpedoes seen by over 10 sailors and airmen fired from the Vientnamese ships. August 4th is the famous day where Johnson supposedly said "Those sailors may have been firing on flying fish for all I know." The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution came about after deliberation and a Commission.

Public support in our "friends" countries never peaked over 64%. In America it peaked at about 78%.

Back to the Gulf of Tonkin: I'm sure you believe this was a "false flag" operation?



This post was edited on 11/25 at 1:41 am


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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Back to the Gulf of Tonkin: I'm sure you believe this was a "false flag" operation?



It may have just been poor communication. It may not have been a premeditated mistake to rev up the war engines. There is no way to prove intention. But, the fact is they did make a mistake, and that mistake had great influence.

LINK

Pay particular attention to the final 15 seconds of this video, McNamara admits they were wrong, "it didn't happen" - Robert McNamara U.S Secretary of Defense. Boom. This is why it's frustrating to even get into these conversations, people make you prove things that are simply common knowledge at this point.



This post was edited on 11/25 at 5:48 am


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themunch
LSU Fan
At home/ at work/ it's all the same
Member since Jan 2007
9857 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


And all this had what to do with John Kerry helping to fuel the fires of anti-war sentiment into hating on American soldiers?

The Peace Movement was a major reason for May Day in DC. Those who followed this movement had no hatred for soldiers. They had a reason to not like the war. It mainly came from a government hell bent on carrying on an illegal draft. The same government lacked the balls do declare war and back it's own troops due to concerns over inciting Russia and China.

The origins of war are not as important as having full unadulterated support of the government and the people.

Vietnam lacked both of these.






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ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
west of the pines
Member since Aug 2005
9737 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

The war started on a false premise and a large amount of our soldiers represented our country very poorly. Of course people weren't going to receive them kindly, I'm glad.

Everything LBJ did was a lie and evil to the core.

But there were not a 'large amount' of our soldiers representing our country poorly.

There were a few - as there is in every war - war is hell.

Our Nam vets were just like any other vets taken as a whole. This was the first time we had a press corps who looked to publicize questionable behavior rather than cover it up as they had in prior wars.

I think this is where the press media discovered they could actually bring down a presidency by the way they applied their filter/megaphone to the events of the day. After taking down LBJ, they set their sights on Nixon and the awful blight of political correctness followed.

The only difference now is that the media have taken sides. Having gained the power, they decided to form an unholy alliance with the DEMs.

Now the filter/megaphone has a bias.






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CarrolltonTiger
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
46300 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


How much spit is necessary for it to be common?


BBTAIM:

It would be hard to know who was coming home. You got on a plane in SE Asia, you probably landed at Travis AFB and within a few hours you were out of the service and on a bus to the airport in SF, and catching a flight for your final destination probably in your class A or B's possibly in civilian clothes.

Riff raff didn't fly as much in those days and the only place to really spit would have been at at a few terminals.







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mograyback
Missouri Fan
Member since Jul 2011
7102 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


quote:

Message
themunch


Nothin like jumpin' in out of left field.






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themunch
LSU Fan
At home/ at work/ it's all the same
Member since Jan 2007
9857 posts

re: Was the treatment of Vietnam soldiers returning home somewhat mythical?


with both feet too.





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