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trackfan 
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Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
10902 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 8:18 am to SammyTiger)
quote:
I hope you realize you think it is a shame Hamas doesn't have more modern tools to more effectively kill Israeli civilians. It is also tough to expel an occupying force that isn't in the gaza strip. I suppose you could rant against the blockade, but thats because you want Hamas to have better weapons.
I think there would be a lot more peace in the region if there was an equal balance of power. The 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war ended ideally, with both sides regretting that the war had happened, but this wouldn't have happened if Hezbollah didn't have the ability to destroy entire columns of Israeli armour and sink an Israeli ship. Balance of power is what kept the peace between the US and the USSR during the Cold War and it's what's keeping the peace between Pakistan and India today.
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JEAUXBLEAUX
LSU Fan
Bayonne, NJ
Member since May 2006
38558 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 8:19 am to trackfan)
Based on this theory let's give more weapons, nuclear and others, to Iran to keep the balance of power with the US
NOT
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Geauxrilla Ballz
S'port
Member since Jan 2009
269 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 9:30 am to SammyTiger)
quote:
It is also tough to expel an occupying force that isn't in the gaza strip.
Are you seriously suggesting there isn't an occupation in the Gaza Strip?
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CajunAngele
LSU Fan
Member since Oct 2012
5257 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 9:33 am to Meauxjeaux)
Oldest trick in the book. They just needed to reload weapons. I am only shocked our media has not reported that Hillary and Obama should be given peace prizes for the greatness in making faux peace 
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SammyTiger
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
4761 posts
 Online
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:24 am to Geauxrilla Ballz)
quote:
Are you seriously suggesting there isn't an occupation in the Gaza Strip?
What i am saying is it is hard to directly fire at occupying forces inside the borders when Israel have withdrawn troops, and disassembled settlements. So they instead fire at... women and children.
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Geauxrilla Ballz
S'port
Member since Jan 2009
269 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 11:56 am to SammyTiger)
quote:
What i am saying is it is hard to directly fire at occupying forces inside the borders when Israel have withdrawn troops, and disassembled settlements. So they instead fire at... women and children.
I gotcha. Illegal disassembled settlements, may I remind you. I'm pretty sure they fire to fire, and the "women and children" tag is just to add drama.
Technically, ALL Israelis are military targets since they all serve in the military at one point or another - and the Palestinians have been targeted without prejudice as well. Women and children, as well as everyone else.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if both sides would refrain from violence?
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CarrolltonTiger
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Aug 2005
44021 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 12:00 pm to Geauxrilla Ballz)
quote:
Wouldn't it be fantastic if both sides would refrain from violence?
Or at least terrorism,
But the fact remains the occupation will not end without resistance, the Zionist want the land of the Palestinians for Israeli settlers.
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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
10902 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 1:29 pm to CarrolltonTiger)
quote:
But the fact remains the occupation will not end without resistance, the Zionist want the land of the Palestinians for Israeli settlers.
Exactly! There has not been a single instance in all of human history in which oppressors have voluntarily decided to end their oppression out of the goodness of their hearts. The oppressed must always put pressure on the oppressors in order for the oppression to end.
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SammyTiger
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Feb 2009
4761 posts
Online
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 8:15 pm to trackfan)
I remember Ghandi firing all those rockets into London too.
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themunch
LSU Fan
USA
Member since Jan 2007
5504 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 8:59 pm to SammyTiger)
The London Blitzkrieg
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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
10902 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 9:28 pm to SammyTiger)
quote:
I remember Ghandi firing all those rockets into London too.
Who said he did and what does this have to do with the statement that I made? By the way, the early Zionist certainly had no problem bringing their terror campaign to London.
EDIT: Do you know who said this: “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”
This post was edited on 11/23 at 9:33 pm
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themunch
LSU Fan
USA
Member since Jan 2007
5504 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 9:53 pm to trackfan)
I think the point was you do not have to fight force with force, but you can bring forth pressure in other forms and means.
quote:
Zionist certainly had no problem bringing their terror campaign to London.
really?
I remember Britain leaving the Jews and the newly formed nation of Israel to the wolves.
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sugar71 
UCLA Fan
baton rouge
Member since Jun 2012
575 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 9:55 pm to trackfan)
quote:
EDIT: Do you know who said this: “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”
Fredrick Douglass: "Freedom concedes nothing without demand"
"Without struggle there is no progress"
This post was edited on 11/23 at 9:57 pm
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Geauxrilla Ballz
S'port
Member since Jan 2009
269 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:06 pm to sugar71)
The Jews In Palestine
By Mahatma Gandhi
Published in the Harijan
26-11-1938.
Several letters have been received by me, asking me to declare my views
about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and the persecution of the Jews in
Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on
this very difficult question.
My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South
Africa. Some of them became lifelong companions. Through these friends I
came to learn much of their age long persecution. They have been the
untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by
Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close.
Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of
the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships,
therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for
the Jews. But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice.
The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me.
The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews
have hankered after return to Palestine.
Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country
their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their
national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of
the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French.
If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being
forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled?
Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the
national home affords a colorable justification for the German expulsion of
the Jews. But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel
in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have
gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For, he is propounding a new
religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which any
inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter.
The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his
wholerace with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable
war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany to prevent the
wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do
not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is,
therefore, outside my horizon or province.
But if there can be no war against Germany, even for such a crime as is
being committed against the Jews, surely there can be no alliance with
Germany. How can there be alliance between a nation, which claims to stand
for justice and democracy and one, which is the declared enemy of both? Or
is England drifting towards armed dictatorship and all it means?
Germany is showing to the world how efficiently violence can be worked when
it is not hampered by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as humanitarianism.It is also showing how hideous, terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness.Can the Jews resist this organized and shameless persecution? Is there a way to preserve their self-respect, and not to feel helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is. No person who has faith in a living God need feel helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God more personal than the God of the Christians, the Mussalmans or the Hindus, though as a matter of fact, in essence, He is common to all and one without a second and beyond description. But as the Jews attribute personality to God and believe that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not to feel helpless.
If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I
would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this I
should not wait for! the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but
would have confidence that in the end the rest were bound to follow my
example.... ...
And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going
about it in the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a
geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the
Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under
the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the
aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the
goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart.
The same God rules the Arab heart who rules the Jewish heart... They will
find the world opinion in their favor in their religious aspiration. There are
hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the
help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the
British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not
defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence
in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment
upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong,
nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of
overwhelming odds.
Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing
the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every
country is their home, including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving
service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution
to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done
to enrich the world's literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine,
agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jew can refuse to be treated as the
outcast of the West, to be despised or patronized. He can command the
attention and respect of the world by being the chosen creation of God,
instead of sinking to the brute who is forsaken by God. They can add to
their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action.
This post was edited on 11/23 at 10:15 pm
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sugar71
UCLA Fan
baton rouge
Member since Jun 2012
575 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:08 pm to themunch)
quote:
think the point was you do not have to fight force with force, but you can bring forth pressure in other forms and means.
Kind of difficult when Israel has as it's lapdog the world's most powerful Nation(mentioned Israel 34 times in final US debate)
With Israel's automatic veto(US) on the UN Security Council it can't expect help from that organization.
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themunch
LSU Fan
USA
Member since Jan 2007
5504 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:22 pm to Geauxrilla Ballz)
My rebuttal to Ghandi would be this...as far as Palestine goes it is obvious they have never had control over this territory or any other for but a brief moment in time...
Here is the time line for you to ponder, after which you may respond..
History of "Palestine" 1273 BCE to 1948
The only time "Palestine" was ruled by "Palestinians" or any people from the Arabian Peninsula was briefly around 635 A.D.
"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 A.D. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years...," the Muslim chairman of the Syrian Delegation attested in his remarks to the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919.
"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel... " Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977
A.D. Ruler *
1273 BCE Israel Conquest of Canaan ** under Joshua,
423 BCE Iranian Babylon invades and destroys First Temple [Persian empire was based in modern day Iran]
371 BCE Israel
Iranian King Cyrus issued decree to restore Jewish Nation
312 BCE Israel
Greek Battle of Gaza; Seleucus controls Syria and Babylonia [Seleucid empire was based in Macedonia, northern Greece]
285-246 BCE Israel
Egyptian Rule of Ptolemy II
199 BCE Israel
Greek Seleucid monarchy occupies Judea **
175 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Antiochus Epiphanes came to throne in Syria
168 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Pagan idol set up in Temple
165 BCE Israel
Greek-Syrian Macabean Revolt, beginning of Hasmonean dynasty
142 BCE Israel Shimon rules and gains Judean indepence
135-104 BCE Israel Rule of Yochanan Hyrkanus
104-103 BCE Israel Rule of Yehudah Aristobulus
103-76 BCE Israel Rule of Alexander Yannai
76-66 BCE Israel Rule of Salome Alexandra
63 BCE Israel
Roman Civil War: Hyrkanus vs. Aristobulus. Pompey intervenes, Conquest of Jerusalem by Pompey, Judea becomes Roman Vassal.
47 BCE Israel
Roman Caesar appoints Antipater ruler of Judea
70 Roman The Romans conquer Jerusalem
132-136 Roman Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty, rename area to "Palestine" **
351 Roman Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 Turkish Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 Turkish Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 Iran Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 Turkish "Palestine" reconquered by the Byzantines
633-637 Syrian Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 Syrian Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 Syrian Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
661 Syrian Murder of Ali; Omayyad Dynasty begins.
750 Iraq Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persian, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878 Egyptian Ahmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor of Egypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904 Iraq The Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906 Carmathians Inroads of the Carmathians.
934 Egyptian The Egyptian lkhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969 Egyptian The Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971 Carmathians War with the Carmathians.
970-976 Turkish Byzantine invasion.
1070-1080 Turkish Seljuq Turks conquer Palestine.
1099 Crusaders The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187 Crusaders Saladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244 Mongolian The Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem's population is slaughtered, the city sacked.
1260 Egyptian Mameluk Sultans of Egypt defeat Mongols at Ain Jalut, in Palestine; their reign begins.
1260 Egyptian Mongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291 Egyptian End of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303 Mongolian Mongol invasion.
1516-1517 Turkish The Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799 French Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831 Egyptian Ibrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt's Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840 Turkish Ibrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840 Turkish English writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882 Turkish First Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909 Turkish Foundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918 British Allies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918 British Balfour Declaration granting "Jewish Homeland" internationally approved.
1920 British British (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration
1922 British Palestine Mandate; Jewish National Home confirmed.
1923 British Palestine Mandate comes into operation.
1923 British Seventy-five percent of Palestine is set aside as an independent Arab "Palestinian" state, Transiordan.
1925 British Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened.
1927 British High Commissioners receive Commission for Transjordan.
1929 British Arab revolt.
1936-1939 British Arab revolt and civil war.
1946 British Establishment of Arab state of Transiordan.
1948 Israel End of Mandate for Palestine; establishment of State of Israel; Arab-Jewish war.
1948 Israel Eastern Palestine-Transjordan-.occupies the West Bank area of Western Palestine, becomes "Jordan," constituting over eighty percent of Palestine.
* For familiarity we cite the closest modern country which contained the seat of power at the time.
** Canaan, Judea and "Palestine" refers to both the East and West banks of the Jordan river, what is Israel and Jordan today..
Source: Joan Peter's "From Time Immemorial" Harper & Row Publishers
(with over 150 pages of well sourced footnotes) and
"History of the Jewish People - The Second Temple Era" by Mesorah Publications
Click for Related Articles
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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
10902 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:26 pm to sugar71)
quote:
quote:
think the point was you do not have to fight force with force, but you can bring forth pressure in other forms and means.
Kind of difficult when Israel has as it's lapdog the world's most powerful Nation(mentioned Israel 34 times in final US debate)
With Israel's automatic veto(US) on the UN Security Council it can't expect help from that organization.
Gandhi himself talked about the limitations of nonviolent protest. I'm opposed to violence in situations where non-violence will work, but does anyone here believe that nonviolent protest would have convinced Hitler of the error of his ways?
quote:
Gandhi was fortunate that it was the British who ruled India rather than any other colonial masters. "Shoot Gandhi" was Adolf Hitler's advice to Lord Halifax, in 1938, about how to rule the Subcontinent, "and if that does not suffice to reduce them to submission, shoot a dozen leading members of Congress; and if that does not suffice, shoot two hundred, and so on until order is established."
LINK
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trackfan
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
10902 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:36 pm to themunch)
quote:
My rebuttal to Ghandi would be this...as far as Palestine goes it is obvious they have never had control over this territory or any other for but a brief moment in time...
Why is this relevant? Are you saying that a people who are indigenous to a land have no claim to it unless they set up a formal government and all the bells and whistles that are associated with a modern nation-state? Does indigenousness not count for anything? How do you feel about Churchill's statement on racial supremacy?
"I do not agree that the dog [Palestinians] in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."
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themunch
LSU Fan
USA
Member since Jan 2007
5504 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:42 pm to trackfan)
Then we should give back to the Mexicans what is theirs and give back to the Naive Americans what is theirs and get out.
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Geauxrilla Ballz
S'port
Member since Jan 2009
269 posts
| re: AP: Cease Fire Confirmed by Israeli PM (Posted on 11/23/12 at 10:45 pm to themunch)
The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their
territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we
allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's
conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at
[only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
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