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TheHiddenFlask 
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 3:54 pm to buddhavista)
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that was not the only options presented. They could have gone for a grand bargain but both sides said no thanks, we will deal with this post 2012.
Very Very VERY saddened by that move.
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I guess we agree then.
It has seemed like it the whole way through.
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I think you over-estimate how many americans are really on the gov't teat. And how many of them vote.
SS and Medicare are government assistance. Sure they may have paid into it, but they really didn't. they just funded their current government ops while they ran up a tab on SS that will be paid by later generations. They deserve very little for their "contributions".
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If you include all types of welfare - SS, medicare, corporate, agriculture - I would agree.
Read this after I typed the above comment.
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Get the illegals, who work for lower than market wages, and I bet many service level jobs would increase in pay.
Agreed. However, I would add the caveat of reducing the barriers to firing someone. It's insanely expensive to fire someone. It has gotten to the point where people are afraid to hire someone because it's so expensive to fire them if they don't do their work. Similar to a hungry belly, the real threat of getting fired for not doing your job would be a major shot in the arm for the American economy.
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LSURussian 
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 3:55 pm to buddhavista)
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This just isn't true at a federal level. Marginal tax rates and effective tax rates are lower now than throughout much of our history. The top statutory tax rate in 2009 was 35%; back in 1958, it was about 90%! Capital gains taxes are also down.
You completely missed the point. 
It has nothing to do with tax rates. It has EVERYTHING to do with who pays NO taxes vs those who pay taxes.
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rsande2
LSU Fan
Member since Jan 2006
3410 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 3:57 pm to jonboy)
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the rapid expansion of executive power started with the Bush administration.
I agree.
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dewster 
Maryland Fan
TN
Member since Aug 2006
4378 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 3:57 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
As usual, you are 100% correct.
I see the lack of people with skin in the game in this country as one of the leading causes of its eventual collapse.
LINK
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Total annual spending on federal means-tested welfare programs has hit $1 trillion. The Congressional Research Service is out with a new memorandum on spending on these programs. Senator Jeff Sessions, the ranking Republican on the Senate budget committee who requested the memo, has crunched the numbers and come up with the astonishing figure of $1 trillion in annual total spending on these programs as of fiscal year 2011, nearly $750 billion in federal dollars and another roughly $250 billion in state funding.
The state spending is required for participation.
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The exclusively federal share of spending on these federal programs is up 32 percent since 2008, and now comprises 21 percent of federal outlays (this share too is more than Social Security, Medicare, or defense).
Pretty disturbing infograph here:
LINK
I never imagined we'd spend that much on Medcaid, social security, and Medicare. It's massive.
This post was edited on 11/13 at 4:07 pm
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buddhavista
Member since Jul 2012
3543 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:00 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
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Agreed. However, I would add the caveat of reducing the barriers to firing someone. It's insanely expensive to fire someone. It has gotten to the point where people are afraid to hire someone because it's so expensive to fire them if they don't do their work. Similar to a hungry belly, the real threat of getting fired for not doing your job would be a major shot in the arm for the American economy.
I work in a very large corporation. We don't fire people. I have been here for 9 years, and only have seen senior executives fired. And they always seem to leave to spend time with their family. But we routinely cycle staff through layoffs, which don't have those barriers. We lay people off about every 60 days, so its easy to put someone on that list.
What is interesting, and maybe its b.c I live in at will employment, state is that the small business I co-own fires people all the time.
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LSURussian
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2005
63156 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:01 pm to buddhavista)
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but both sides said no thanks
Wrong.
Bohner thought they had a deal. Obama even shook hands with him on it.
One hour later after Bohner had left the White House Obama issued a statement saying the sides could not reach an agreement.
The agreement was $800 in new revenue, aka...taxes, and $500 billion in cuts.
To this day Bohner says Obama can not be trusted for his word.
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los angeles tiger
LSU Fan
1,601 miles from Tiger Stadium
Member since Oct 2003
54242 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:06 pm to 90proofprofessional)
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just a minor fix, taxes are still low
No, they are not. People in California making $250,000 a year now have the highest federal and state income tax just went up to 13%. Add the two, if they up top to 39%, it is 52% of your income paid in taxes. That doesn't count sales tax, property taxes, gasoline taxes, utility taxes, phone taxes, car registration and fees (taxes) and others I might have left off.
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dewster
Maryland Fan
TN
Member since Aug 2006
4378 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:09 pm to los angeles tiger)
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No, they are not. People in California making $250,000 a year now have the highest federal and state income tax just went up to 13%. Add the two, if they up top to 39%, it is 52% of your income paid in taxes. That doesn't count sales tax, property taxes, gasoline taxes, utility taxes, phone taxes, car registration and fees (taxes) and others I might have left off.
What you'll see is a larger descrepancy in taxes by state.
On a federal level, the house will continue to block federal tax increases when possible, but the sky is the limit for legislatures in most blue states. Conservatives have a better chance of maintaining the house than anything.
If this goes on long enough, it will concentrate wealth and economic power to the states that have their act together (Texas) at the expense of states that don't (California).
This post was edited on 11/13 at 4:10 pm
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los angeles tiger
LSU Fan
1,601 miles from Tiger Stadium
Member since Oct 2003
54242 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:12 pm to dewster)
In California we have to pay for Jerry Brown's public employee union salaries, pensions and benefits. They retire at 55 with 100% health and many, many receiving pensions of over $100,000 a year. Some up to half a million a year.
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wavebreaker
LSU Fan
New Orleans
Member since Nov 2012
467 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:15 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
Session won't be needed. The system will collapse and break up due to debt. We'll see regions join together. Hope we go with Texas and not Mississippi!
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joshnorris14 
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
19518 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:17 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
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It does and I do. It was intentional.
So you believe secession will lead to a perfect society which isn't troubled by the scarce availability of resources?
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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16382 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:36 pm to joshnorris14)
No. I think it means it's impossibly ideal.
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3: impossibly ideal : visionary <recognised the utopian nature of his hopes — C. S. Kilby>
LINK
I'm not sure if I post enough on here for oyu to know who I am, but my mastery of the English language is pretty phenomenal. Please go back to your troll cave filled with the remnants of derailed threads.
You could at least look the word up before you try to call someone out.
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Tiger n Miami AU83 
Auburn Fan
Miami
Member since Oct 2007
25150 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:40 pm to LSURussian)
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Wrong.
Bohner thought they had a deal. Obama even shook hands with him on it.
One hour later after Bohner had left the White House Obama issued a statement saying the sides could not reach an agreement.
The agreement was $800 in new revenue, aka...taxes, and $500 billion in cuts.
To this day Bohner says Obama can not be trusted for his word.
You are a lost dog in high weeds. I sorta doubt you ever make it out. Sorta like the Fox nut jobs unfortunately.
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joshnorris14
Florida Fan
Florida
Member since Jan 2009
19518 posts
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:42 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
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No. I think it means it's impossibly ideal.
Right, ideal conditions eliminate scarcity.
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Porky 
Arkansas Fan
Member since Aug 2008
9290 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 4:42 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
We don't need an income tax. We need one on spending.
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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16382 posts
Online
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 5:24 pm to Porky)
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We don't need an income tax. We need one on spending.
I would love a system where sales tax is 100% of the revenue and you file an income tax return at the end of the year to claim what you overpaid. It would remind people how expensive the government is in reality.
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Porky
Arkansas Fan
Member since Aug 2008
9290 posts
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| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 5:36 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
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I would love a system where sales tax is 100% of the revenue and you file an income tax return at the end of the year to claim what you overpaid.
I don't really see it as overpay though. The more spent on personal consumption, the more paid for taxes...the same rate for everyone. And the government shouldn't be allowed to spend money that's not there, and only spend money on our own country and economy, not overseas political endeavors.
This post was edited on 11/13 at 5:43 pm
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TheHiddenFlask
Clemson Fan
The Welsh red light district
Member since Jul 2008
16382 posts
Online
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 5:52 pm to Porky)
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I don't really see it as overpay though. The more spent on personal consumption, the more paid for taxes...the same rate for everyone.
Marginal tax rates are a necessary evil. The bottom 20% can't sales tax rates of 35+% (25% federal + 10% state & local).
There are also negatives associated with depressed consumption with this system, but maybe it would make people understand basica economics better.
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Porky
Arkansas Fan
Member since Aug 2008
9290 posts
Online
| re: Rant on the idea and underpinnings of secession (Posted on 11/13/12 at 6:13 pm to TheHiddenFlask)
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There are also negatives associated with depressed consumption with this system,
Our economy needs to be based more on saving and less on spending, government included. Because an economy based on debt is what feeds inflation. That's why the big banks and Federal Reserve want huge government debt. It feeds the monster which makes them rich (those who own and control the Fed, who control our money) ...and what better way to escalate national debt than through war?.
This post was edited on 11/13 at 6:16 pm
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