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Posted on 4/22/13 at 9:45 am to Hu_Flung_Pu
quote:
Just a god that wanted some nuts
A Red God, I would think. Chestnuts roasting on an open fire...
Sandy Claws?
I wonder what the voice said?
The content wasn't revealed in book, either, IIRC.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 9:56 am to 19
quote:possibly. i thought the blue flame might indicate the Great Other but then it shouldn't be a flame at all. that's R'hllor's thing.
A Red God, I would think
quote:
Followers of R'hllor believe that there are only two gods, R'hllor and the Great Other, who wage an eternal war over the fate of the world. All forces of darkness, cold, and death are believed to be only servants to the Great Other.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 10:10 am to manwich
Ok, not to change the topic, but I was posting about how great Tywin has been in the series in the other thread, and I really have to bring this here.
He truly is one of my favorite characters.
But there is one thing that has always bothered me. I understand why GRRM did it in order to push Tyrion, but WHY THE FUUUUCK IS TYWIN WITH SHAE???????????
Everything we're told about him is that he HATES whores and would never do anything to smear the Lannister name. Is it just to show that he's weak, hypocritical, lonely??
I kind of get that I guess, but not completely. I just truly do think that he is an ice blooded elitist who truly wouldn't lower himself to sleep with some dirty whore, especially one who was steady with his loathsome bastard of a son that he despised. I just truly don't get it. Especially since he seems to genuinely have loved his wife and holds on to her as his wife even all the years later. It's his main reason for resenting Tyrion so much, even beyond him being a dwarf.
Was Shae ALWAYS a spy for Tywin when she was with Tyrion?? I get that, but LF doesn't sleep with his whores that he uses as spies.
I just can't buy it.
Even if it is the lame device to push Tyrion to murder, I just don't think it was needed. Jamie's revelation about his father lying about Tysha should have been enough to do that IMO.
And it also makes Tyrion much less respectable IMO. Killing a woman just seems like a big jump for him, although him finding her with Tywin makes it believable at least.
But it's the fact that Tywin was with her that is unbelievable to me.
Someone convince me this isn't just a lame and contrived device to push Tyrion to murder his father when he would have done it anyway after learning about Tysha.
He truly is one of my favorite characters.
But there is one thing that has always bothered me. I understand why GRRM did it in order to push Tyrion, but WHY THE FUUUUCK IS TYWIN WITH SHAE???????????
Everything we're told about him is that he HATES whores and would never do anything to smear the Lannister name. Is it just to show that he's weak, hypocritical, lonely??
I kind of get that I guess, but not completely. I just truly do think that he is an ice blooded elitist who truly wouldn't lower himself to sleep with some dirty whore, especially one who was steady with his loathsome bastard of a son that he despised. I just truly don't get it. Especially since he seems to genuinely have loved his wife and holds on to her as his wife even all the years later. It's his main reason for resenting Tyrion so much, even beyond him being a dwarf.
Was Shae ALWAYS a spy for Tywin when she was with Tyrion?? I get that, but LF doesn't sleep with his whores that he uses as spies.
I just can't buy it.
Even if it is the lame device to push Tyrion to murder, I just don't think it was needed. Jamie's revelation about his father lying about Tysha should have been enough to do that IMO.
And it also makes Tyrion much less respectable IMO. Killing a woman just seems like a big jump for him, although him finding her with Tywin makes it believable at least.
But it's the fact that Tywin was with her that is unbelievable to me.
Someone convince me this isn't just a lame and contrived device to push Tyrion to murder his father when he would have done it anyway after learning about Tysha.
This post was edited on 4/22/13 at 10:15 am
Posted on 4/22/13 at 10:44 am to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
But it's the fact that Tywin was with her that is unbelievable to me.
Maybe it was just a facade for his name. But had secret whores.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 11:29 am to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
And it also makes Tyrion much less respectable IMO. Killing a woman just seems like a big jump for him, although him finding her with Tywin makes it believable at least.
To me, it showed that Tyrion had cracked. He puts up with so much shite from absolutely everyone and just tries to go on with life being a little pImp as usual, but the Tysha revelation and then seeing Shae, who he probably trusted more than anyone else in King's Landing, had betrayed him as well, he just snapped.
As for Tywin, I think that discussion was a few pages ago wasn't it? Someone posted things that made it seem like Tywin was the one who had a secret passage built to Chataya's whore house, so it may not be as out of character as you think.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 11:32 am to Hu_Flung_Pu
On my second read through the series, a particular quote stuck out to me regarding Tywin and whores. When Varys shows Tyrion the secret passage from the stable to Chataya's whore house, he tells Tyrion that a previous Hand of the King used this passage because discretion was of the utmost importance for him (or something very similar). Having known what was to come between Tywin and Shae, it really stuck out to me and I assumed he was referring to Tywin being that Hand. All the more reason (besides his spiders of course) Varys would know Shae was with Tywin when Tyrion went up the ladder to confront him.
This post was edited on 4/22/13 at 11:35 am
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:05 pm to 4CEofN8URE
quote:
To me, it showed that Tyrion had cracked. He puts up with so much shite from absolutely everyone and just tries to go on with life being a little pImp as usual, but the Tysha revelation and then seeing Shae, who he probably trusted more than anyone else in King's Landing, had betrayed him as well, he just snapped.
Good explanation. I can see that part of it more than the Tywin part.
quote:
As for Tywin, I think that discussion was a few pages ago wasn't it? Someone posted things that made it seem like Tywin was the one who had a secret passage built to Chataya's whore house, so it may not be as out of character as you think.
I've kept up pretty well with this thread and didn't see that. Can someone who posted in that discussion link?
quote:
On my second read through the series, a particular quote stuck out to me regarding Tywin and whores. When Varys shows Tyrion the secret passage from the stable to Chataya's whore house, he tells Tyrion that a previous Hand of the King used this passage because discretion was of the utmost importance for him (or something very similar). Having known what was to come between Tywin and Shae, it really stuck out to me and I assumed he was referring to Tywin being that Hand.
Wow. That is a really good catch.
Still, it doesn't surprise me that GRRM would leave a trail that people looking back would see to justify having Tywin be with a whore.
But I still don't buy it as something the character would do. The fact that there may have been some hints at it doesn't make it much better than if it was totally out of left field.
I just still think it goes against the core of the character.
Tywin was never "good", that's clear. But I at least thought he kept his bed clean
I mean, if nothing else it's even more interesting IMO for this cold blooded assassin that orchestrated the RW, set the Mountain loose on the realm and the Targ children, betrayed Aerys etc. to be like well at least I don't frick dirty whores!!
It makes his obsession with the Lannister name/image all the more fascinating to me than just some crazy arse power hungry murderer who is also like "whores are bad", but screws them all the time in secret.
I just liked that he held onto that one thing as some sort of holier than thou trophy to waive in front of the kingdom and especially Tyrion's face, than just some simple lie.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:08 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Tywin always bedded whores and was an absolute hypocrite. He merely kept a lower profile about the whores he fricked. Tyrion is his father's son, but in miniature form.
Honestly, if I didn't have anything to lose, I would have probably killed Shae, for fricking Tywin and betraying him in court.
quote:
And it also makes Tyrion much less respectable IMO. Killing a woman just seems like a big jump for him, although him finding her with Tywin makes it believable at least.
Honestly, if I didn't have anything to lose, I would have probably killed Shae, for fricking Tywin and betraying him in court.
This post was edited on 4/22/13 at 12:12 pm
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:15 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Tywin always bedded whores and was an absolute hypocrite. He merely kept a lower profile about the whores he fricked. Tyrion is his father's son, but in miniature form.
I get that general idea, and for the most part it is true. But they definitely had major differences in their personalities. I mean, there was a lengthy sequence telling how people had literally never seen Tywin smile. That clearly is not Tyrion.
I just wanted that to be Tywin's one redeeming thing he held on to as some badge of honor despite being the most ruthless motherfricker to ever walk Westeros.
This post was edited on 4/22/13 at 12:17 pm
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:16 pm to OMLandshark
Yeah I always thought it showed the reader that there really isn't any true extreme in the book. No complete good, no complete evil. No complete lawful or proud person either. Showing Tywin's extreme family honor (if you can call it that) and family pride as being total bullshite shows that even the characters that seem to have the most entrenched ideals are subject to breaking those ideals.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:43 pm to 4CEofN8URE
quote:
On my second read through the series, a particular quote stuck out to me regarding Tywin and whores. When Varys shows Tyrion the secret passage from the stable to Chataya's whore house, he tells Tyrion that a previous Hand of the King used this passage because discretion was of the utmost importance for him (or something very similar). Having known what was to come between Tywin and Shae, it really stuck out to me and I assumed he was referring to Tywin being that Hand.
If this is the case, I think that this just further reinforces that Tyrion is truly Tywin's son. Tywin is so disgusted by Tyrion because he see's so much of himself in Tyrion even though to him he is a deformed creature which is probably another reason he despises him so much (other than the fact that he is the reason Joanna died).
This post was edited on 4/22/13 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:46 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
I get that general idea, and for the most part it is true. But they definitely had major differences in their personalities. I mean, there was a lengthy sequence telling how people had literally never seen Tywin smile. That clearly is not Tyrion.
Tyrion didn't grow up in the same mocking environment Tywin did. If Tyrion's father received no respect and his lords openly rebelled, he may have also never smiled and distrusted laughter.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:48 pm to BleedPurpleGold
The whole magic and religion stuff bothers me too.
Okay, the lord of light obviously has some magical powers and is tied to the dragons somehow but it's kind of a dick god because if you don't accept R'hllor as the one true god, you're an agent of darkness.
Then there's the weirwoods, old gods, greenseers, children of the forest... They have some working magical powers too and are maybe associated with warging and seeing the future similar to the way the light frickers see stuff in the flames but through dreams.
Then there's the faith of the seven which just seems like a water downed newer religion without a lot of the magic. However, dumbass Cersei officially reinstated both orders of the Faith Militant as a concession to the new High Septon. They will likely be major players in the end game being the dominant religion in Westeros.
The Many-Faced God, death god worshiped by assassins.
Then you have all the other cult religions like the drowned god, storm god, god of tits and wine.
It's all very confusing.
Okay, the lord of light obviously has some magical powers and is tied to the dragons somehow but it's kind of a dick god because if you don't accept R'hllor as the one true god, you're an agent of darkness.
Then there's the weirwoods, old gods, greenseers, children of the forest... They have some working magical powers too and are maybe associated with warging and seeing the future similar to the way the light frickers see stuff in the flames but through dreams.
Then there's the faith of the seven which just seems like a water downed newer religion without a lot of the magic. However, dumbass Cersei officially reinstated both orders of the Faith Militant as a concession to the new High Septon. They will likely be major players in the end game being the dominant religion in Westeros.
The Many-Faced God, death god worshiped by assassins.
Then you have all the other cult religions like the drowned god, storm god, god of tits and wine.
It's all very confusing.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:52 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
It's very representative of real life though. You have Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Mormons, etc. Even your very unconventional, cult esque deals like Scientology. Nothing is ever clear cut.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:55 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
When Varys shows Tyrion the secret passage from the stable to Chataya's whore house, he tells Tyrion that a previous Hand of the King used this passage because discretion was of the utmost importance for him (or something very similar). Having known what was to come between Tywin and Shae, it really stuck out to me and I assumed he was referring to Tywin being that Hand.
Good idea, but...
I'm pretty sure at that point, Varys would have all out admitted "Your lord father" or even "Your successor as Hand" instead of being vague about a previous Hand- But I also believe that Varys intended for Tyrion to kill Tywin, meant for Tyrion to catch Shae there, and even went so far as to move a chest in the Hand's chamber against the wall under the crossbow for Tyrion to reach it - (When I re-read that Tyrion chapter with this in mind...it all but screamed at me, anway
) I took it as Varys referring to Jon Arryn and his need for complete discretion in investigating the Lannistercest...checking in periodically at Robert's favorite cathouse to see if any new Royal Bastards were there/on the way, and note the hair color...Not gonna bet the house on that, but...
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:55 pm to BlackleafBaller
quote:
If this is the case, I think that this just further reinforces that Tyrion is truly Tywin's son. Tywin is so disgusted by Tyrion because he see's so much of himself in Tyrion even though to him he is a deformed creature which is probably another reason he despises him so much (other than the fact that he is the reason Joanna died).
Agreed. Honestly, while he still completely despises Tyrion, I think Cersei is the child Tywin has the lowest opinion of. I think he deep down knows that Tyrion is a form of him where all of his worse and good qualities are amplified, and thus has some respect for Tyrion's skills. Tywin, while he does love her, doesn't really care about Cersei. He thinks she is foolish, cocky, and slightly crazy. I think he sees a lot of Aerys within her and sees her as almost fully incompetent, which is why he sends Tyrion to her in the first place. As Jaime puts it, Tywin is a glacier while Cersei is merely wildfire.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 12:57 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
It's very representative of real life though. You have Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Mormons, etc. Even your very unconventional, cult esque deals like Scientology. Nothing is ever clear cut.
Yeah good point and I see that, but we don't have magical face changers and resurrecting motherfrickers at will kind of religions.
:|
Posted on 4/22/13 at 1:00 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Agreed. Honestly, while he still completely despises Tyrion, I think Cersei is the child Tywin has the lowest opinion of. I think he deep down knows that Tyrion is a form of him where all of his worse and good qualities are amplified, and thus has some respect for Tyrion's skills. Tywin, while he does love her, doesn't really care about Cersei. He thinks she is foolish, cocky, and slightly crazy. I think he sees a lot of Aerys within her and sees her as almost fully incompetent, which is why he sends Tyrion to her in the first place. As Jaime puts it, Tywin is a glacier while Cersei is merely wildfire.
This is spot on.
Posted on 4/22/13 at 1:01 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:and the sinking of giant land bridges near Dorne and the Neck
Then there's the weirwoods, old gods, greenseers, children of the forest... They have some working magical powers too and are maybe associated with warging and seeing the future similar to the way the light frickers see stuff in the flames but through dreams.
quote:I'm curious if the Seven tie into or oppose the seven Starks because the way I see it:
Then there's the faith of the seven which just seems like a water downed newer religion without a lot of the magic. However, dumbass Cersei officially reinstated both orders of the Faith Militant as a concession to the new High Septon. They will likely be major players in the end game being the dominant religion in Westeros.
Ned - The Father
Cat - The Mother
Robb - The Warrior
Bran - The Crone
Sansa - The Maiden
Arya - The Stranger
Rickon - The Smith?
ETA: if Rickon picks up a hammer then I will be sold on this idea.
also, if Gendry works his way into the Stark family (through marrying Arya or something), he may represent the Smith
i know this is crackpot
This post was edited on 4/22/13 at 1:03 pm
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