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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 12/4/12 at 2:37 am to Carson123987
Posted on 12/4/12 at 2:37 am to Carson123987
RandomNumbers, you know this thread late at night is when I'm in my prime 
1
Posted on 12/4/12 at 3:03 am to CottonWasKing
quote:
RandomNumbers, you know this thread late at night is when I'm in my prime
yes, i know exactly why too
Posted on 12/4/12 at 7:48 am to Carson123987
Speaking of R+L=J, just where did everyone figure out Jon's secret? The ToJ scene will probably be the answer for most, I guess. I actually read the first two out of sequence. (Picked up a handful of paperbacks on my way out of town many years ago and CoK just happened to be one. I had never heard of Martin or ASOIAF.) Reading Dany's vision of the blue rose growing in the wall of ice first gave more resonance to the scene in the crypt with Ned and Robert. ToJ really sealed it though.
This post was edited on 12/4/12 at 7:58 am
Posted on 12/4/12 at 7:53 am to shinerfan
I figured it out when Ned was in the dungeon and starts thinking of his children and Jon being the last and completely separate, plus all his "Promise me, Ned" he had going throughout his journey. First read too. Pretty proud of myself.
Posted on 12/4/12 at 8:25 am to shinerfan
quote:
Reading Dany's vision of the blue rose growing in the wall of ice first gave more resonance to the scene in the crypt with Ned and Robert. ToJ really sealed it though.
I had no clue until I read an article on Tower of the Hand. I was pretty oblivious to it.
I do think the constant mention of blue roses in regards to Lyanna then the vision of a blue rose in the wall is one of the most solid pieces of evidence that R+L=J.
Posted on 12/4/12 at 9:23 am to CottonWasKing
I should have used my sarcasm font. I was referring to the poster that had a 3 page argument about how R+L isn't J around page 60 or 70. I am fully on board with Jon's parentage.
Posted on 12/4/12 at 11:53 am to Papercutninja
I smelled your sarcasm...forgive those who missed it, we are somewhat jaded here due to some real crazy opinions - For someone to doubt R+L=J wouldn't surprise any of us at this point.
I was proud of myself for truly coming up with it on my own...and was immediately humbled both by how many others had already beat me to it, and how many hints at other secrets had completely evaded me.
What lead me to it initially was my pre-occupation with Ned's incessant refusal to reveal Jon's mother's name...just made no sense at all, unless she were dead...and on the heels of that, the thought that the kidnapping was bogus, that they were in love/ L had no desire to marry Baratheon. This lil bud of an idea bloomed after reading the TOJ, and already had grown into a mighty oak by the time I read The Knight of the Laughing Tree narrative.
The only argument against that I ever entertained is the "but it's too obvious for Martin" claim.
Over time, I've rejected that one because in truth it is a popular theory, but not obvious. I think that if tested empirically, very few unfamiliar new readers would nail it on their own, without outside clues/ comments to draw it out for them.
I was proud of myself for truly coming up with it on my own...and was immediately humbled both by how many others had already beat me to it, and how many hints at other secrets had completely evaded me.
What lead me to it initially was my pre-occupation with Ned's incessant refusal to reveal Jon's mother's name...just made no sense at all, unless she were dead...and on the heels of that, the thought that the kidnapping was bogus, that they were in love/ L had no desire to marry Baratheon. This lil bud of an idea bloomed after reading the TOJ, and already had grown into a mighty oak by the time I read The Knight of the Laughing Tree narrative.
The only argument against that I ever entertained is the "but it's too obvious for Martin" claim.
Over time, I've rejected that one because in truth it is a popular theory, but not obvious. I think that if tested empirically, very few unfamiliar new readers would nail it on their own, without outside clues/ comments to draw it out for them.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 3:16 am to 19
I'm sorry, but why didn't Tyrion proceed to rip out Littlefinger's throat as soon as he got to King's Landing. Yeah he screwed over Pycelle and Janos Slynt for the things they did to Ned, but Littlefinger was the master orchestrator behind Ned's fall (I'm also convinced he egged Joffrey on to murder Ned) and he directly started the war between the Starks and Lannisters by having Tyrion take the fall and counting on Tyrion's death. It's shocking to me that Tyrion's first act wasn't having Shagga cut Littlefinger's head off. At the very least, Tywin should have had him killed as soon as he got back to King's Landing for such a ballsy move on his house.
This post was edited on 12/6/12 at 3:20 am
Posted on 12/6/12 at 3:48 am to OMLandshark
He kept telling himself that he would draw revenge on LF eventually, IIRC.
also, is the R+L= J twist not the coolest ever? the TV people will go nuts when that is eventually revealed.
also, is the R+L= J twist not the coolest ever? the TV people will go nuts when that is eventually revealed.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 4:33 am to NIH
quote:
He kept telling himself that he would draw revenge on LF eventually, IIRC.
Eventually? That very first night, I would have had the Mountain savages beat down his doors and then rape him with a soldering iron. He almost got Tyrion killed about 5 times and made him sleep in a sky cell for weeks on end. He gave Littlefinger a test to see if he was loyal, but why? I would have wiped the small council clean aside from Varys if I were Tyrion, and certainly Littlefinger would be first up to bat.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 8:46 am to OMLandshark
No one?
Posted on 12/6/12 at 9:12 am to OMLandshark
Just a random thought. Rereading Storm and Stannis has just thrown in the leaches with Edric Storm's blood, dooming Balon Greyjoy, Joffrey Lannister, and Robb Stark. Why the hell doesn't he just keep leaching the kid and knocking off all the leaders? With 20-30 leaches he could have the realm in his hand without a battle fought. 
Though that wouldn't be a very good ending.
Though that wouldn't be a very good ending.
This post was edited on 12/6/12 at 9:13 am
Posted on 12/6/12 at 10:31 am to OMLandshark
From what I gathered Master of Coin isn't exactly a job that anyone wants due to the huge debt incurred during Robert's reign. Plus, since Cersei is on the small council wouldn't she just tell Joffery about Tyrion wiping out the council and have him grant her the power to reappoint people in her favor. I think Tyrion did the best he could given that the King and Queen Regent both hate him.
I thought he was attempting to play LF a bit to see if he was someone that could be used. IIRC, I don't believe Tyrion even knows about the Valyrian dagger so he wouldn't be able to tie it to LF. I do agree with you that LF is a bit of loose cannon when it comes to his desires. I think the true brilliance of the character is his ability to act as though he is a slave to his baser needs by owning all the whore houses while simultaneously having a much deeper intent.
I thought he was attempting to play LF a bit to see if he was someone that could be used. IIRC, I don't believe Tyrion even knows about the Valyrian dagger so he wouldn't be able to tie it to LF. I do agree with you that LF is a bit of loose cannon when it comes to his desires. I think the true brilliance of the character is his ability to act as though he is a slave to his baser needs by owning all the whore houses while simultaneously having a much deeper intent.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 10:41 am to Papercutninja
There was a lot of stuff going on when Tyrion first became hand, that he put LF on the back burner because Stannis was a bigger threat and he had to deal with his nephew and sister.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 10:56 am to NIH
quote:
also, is the R+L= J twist not the coolest ever? the TV people will go nuts when that is eventually revealed.
I actually disagree with this and feel it's one of the most disappointing parts of the television show.
As of right now, I think the show has really done little service to Jon's parentage. We didn't get Ned's visions. Admittedly I've only watched Season 2 once, but I can't remember any particular references to R+L=J. House of the Undying seemed to diverge a good bit from the book. And I doubt we'll see a flashback to the Tower of Joy.
I guess that Jojen and Meera may be able to provide some information this coming season, but it's never struck me as an important issue on the TV show. Obviously (assuming the show lasts long enough) it will come out, but I don't see how it will resonate much with the audience when we haven't met R or L.
Still dig the series. Just think they'd need to do significant legwork to make the reveal matter to the TV audience.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 11:16 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Then it still doesn't make sense for him to send Quentyn to pursue Dany if he did. I think his dangerous bit was because of his potential to marry into the family and possibly usurp Doran.
Maybe it was to get Quentyn out of the way....for what? Idk...
Posted on 12/6/12 at 12:35 pm to SCTmo
quote:
I actually disagree with this and feel it's one of the most disappointing parts of the television show.
This is how I feel as well. While book readers have predicted the parentage based off evidence, the show followers will probably feel like it is completely out of the blue. The show hasn't delved into it at all. I remember in one of these threads, a show watcher claimed he put together the R+L=J theory from the show before reading the books and everyone called BS.
As far as the leaches thing with Stannis, many believe that Mel just saw their demise in her fires and used the leaches as a trick to get Stannis to buy into her power.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 1:55 pm to Gugich22
quote:
Then it still doesn't make sense for him to send Quentyn to pursue Dany if he did. I think his dangerous bit was because of his potential to marry into the family and possibly usurp Doran.
I do not think Doran is afraid of being usurped, his time is not long. He wants to get everything setup, so when he dies his family has had their revenge.
Posted on 12/6/12 at 2:15 pm to ornagestorm
What if Doran is actually not crippled? 
Posted on 12/6/12 at 2:18 pm to Gugich22
quote:
What if Doran is actually not crippled?
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