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dewster 
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:01 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
Largely, the amorphous concept of "institutional quality." People assume that students measure quality, faculty productivity (noble prizes, academic awards, etc..) or research expenditures measure faculty quality. Endowments may measure alumni quality (though I don't know I buy that).
In all of these areas, LSU is so far ahead of UL-L and La-Tech, that they'd have to somehow dismantle LSU to vie for a "flagship" status.
FWIW, UNO and Tech are both great schools....not knocking them. I do see the actions to undermine LSU as a huge negative to the state as a whole.
This post was edited on 5/2 at 11:07 am
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crap4brain 
LSU Fan
Florida
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222 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:04 am to Doctor Radical)
From Wikipedia:
"The phrase flagship institution or flagship university is often used with reference to state university systems in the United States, which often comprise numerous separate and distinct degree-granting institutions. In this context, flagship means the original institutions from which the system grew, often schools dating from the wave of state university foundings that occurred in the three decades from 1850 to 1880"
So in your attempt to dog LSU you imply that it does not meet these qualifications. Then list in your examples several that do not. Maybe you confused about what flagship means.
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:06 am to dewster)
quote:
In all of these areas, LSU is so far ahead of UL-L and La-Tech, that they'd have to somehow dismantle LSU to vie for a "flagship" status.
That line of thinking is part of the problem. It's not a "them versus us" game. It's not about simply being better than the guy in Ruston or in Monroe or in Lafayette. To quote Crazy Mel, you're fighting for the scraps from Longshanks' table.
It's about competing with UNC for students, with UT for graduate students, with A&M for federal research dollars, with CalState institutions for start up companies and intellectual property.
If LaTech became like CalTech and LSU was Berkeley or USL became Michigan State to LSU's Michigan, I can't see how that's bad.
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:07 am to crap4brain)
quote:
Maybe you confused about what flagship means.
Correct.
I was using flagship as a proxy for high institutional quality...not whether it's the "oldest" institution in the state.
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dewster
Maryland Fan
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:10 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
That line of thinking is part of the problem. It's not a "them versus us" game. It's not about simply being better than the guy in Ruston or in Monroe or in Lafayette. To quote Crazy Mel, you're fighting for the scraps from Longshanks' table.
It's about competing with UNC for students, with UT for graduate students, with A&M for federal research dollars, with CalState institutions for start up companies and intellectual property.
If LaTech became like CalTech and LSU was Berkeley or USL became Michigan State to LSU's Michigan, I can't see how that's bad.
Exactly....
Unfortunately, there isn't enough resources around to support a "Michigan" and "Michigan State".
Louisiana has WAY too many 4 year universities around for its size, and no where near enough colaboration even within the vertically integrated systems at UL or LSU.
Politically and functionally, LSU being so big in Shreveport is very important to the insitution, and La-Tech knows this.
Lombardi was aware of this trend in Louisiana, but he was not politically savvy enough to handle it. Blanco was not a friend to LSU in any way.
This post was edited on 5/2 at 11:19 am
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:26 am to dewster)
quote:
Unfortunately, there isn't enough resources around to support a "Michigan" and "Michigan State".
I appreciate that, but disagree.
quote:
Louisiana has WAY too many 4 year universities around for its size, and no where near enough colaboration even within the vertically integrated systems at UL or LSU.
This site actually says the state ranks 42nd in the number of four-year institutions per capita.
LINK
Granted, we rank 7th in the number of public institutions per capita.
LINK
So the state either has a lot of privates or a lot of 2-years.
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dewster
Maryland Fan
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:39 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
I appreciate that, but disagree.
Just where do you think these resources are? I just don't see it. Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the country, and the state has been cutting funding significantly over the last few years.
It can barely support 2 Tier 1 schools.....We just are not prepared to compare LSU and La Tech to Michigan and Michigan State right now as much as I'd like to see both schools in that position one day.
Louisiana has a college in every population center regardless of how minor they are....For a heavily agricultural state with barely 4 million residents, that is really spreading very limited resources way too thin- which hurts schools like LSU and Tech.
BTW...Texas, with a rapidly growing population and a huge swath of land has far fewer '4 years' than Louisiana as a proportion of its population.
This post was edited on 5/2 at 11:48 am
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Erin Go Bragh 
Notre Dame Fan
Beyond the Pale
Member since Dec 2007
1199 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:40 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
I love the assumption that the state actually has an institution deserving of being called "flagship."
I'm guessing you don't know what term flagship university means.
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:41 am to Erin Go Bragh)
quote:
I'm guessing you don't know what term flagship university means.
Correct, it's been clarified that the term being used here references that it is the "oldest" institution in the state.
Which kind of makes it hard for any other school to "cut into it" as stated in the OP.
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tiger1014
LSU Fan
Member since Jan 2011
9047 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:42 am to kingfish)
LA doesn't have the funds to have multiple flagship institutions.
It's LSU.
All other universities serve niche roles. Half need to be closed.
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Erin Go Bragh
Notre Dame Fan
Beyond the Pale
Member since Dec 2007
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:43 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
Correct, it's been clarified that the term being used here references that it is the "oldest" institution in the state.
Sorry, had I read the entire thread I wouldn't have piled on.
I don't think oldest is the criteria as much as the term applies to an university with branch campuses.
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Y.A. Tittle
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
44099 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:43 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
If LaTech became like CalTech and LSU was Berkeley or USL became Michigan State to LSU's Michigan, I can't see how that's bad.
Michigan has about 10 million people.
California has about 38 million people.
Louisiana has about 4 million people.
Is there an example of a state the size of Louisiana with more than one nationally recognized and renowned "Flagship" state university? Please don't say Alabama and Mississippi.
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:47 am to Y.A. Tittle)
quote:
Is there an example of a state the size of Louisiana with more than one nationally recognized and renowned "Flagship" state university?
Iowa has two AAU institutions with a smaller population.
Oregon has an AAU and OSU.
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navy 
Navy Fan
Bannedeville, LA
Member since Sep 2010
3424 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:51 am to Doctor Radical)
Now I remember why I went to school out of state.
Oh, and sorry LaTech ... "UL" has already been claimed. 
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dewster
Maryland Fan
TN
Member since Aug 2006
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 11:58 am to Doctor Radical)
quote:
Iowa has two AAU institutions with a smaller population.
Oregon has an AAU and OSU.
Neither state has poverty rates anywhere near Louisiana either....not to mention less higher ed dead weight to support.
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 12:04 pm to dewster)
quote:
Neither state has poverty rates anywhere near Louisiana either
If that's your measuring stick or your excuse, you're never going to move the state any better than Mississippi.
(also, Oregon's percent of people below the poverty line is only 5 percent lower than Louisiana).
quote:
.not to mention less higher ed dead weight to support.
Both have a higher number of four-year institutions per capita than Louisiana (per my previous link).
(Iowa at 7 and Oregon at 19)
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BigJim
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2010
1416 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 12:28 pm to Doctor Radical)
quote:
Both have a higher number of four-year institutions per capita than Louisiana (per my previous link).
That total not public. LA has more public four years than either.
I count Oregon having 9 4-year public universities (maybe 8 'cause I am not sure one on this list should count): LINK
I count LA having 15 public 4-years (depending on how you classify them).
So if you get the ratio right, you could have more resources going into the top tier. Instead La has gone the "populist" route and spread the "academic" wealth around.
So maybe LaTech could be better if LSU-S, ULM and Grambling didn't even exist.
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Joshjrn
LSU Fan
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Member since Dec 2008
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 12:42 pm to Doctor Radical)
Doc, as has been pointed out repeatedly, the number of private institutions is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. As has been pointed out repeatedly, Louisiana has an astounding number of public institutions based on our population size and poverty level.
But, all that aside. Let's assume that your idea of two elite universities in Louisiana is a good idea. Do you honestly think that trying to raise two universities simultaneously makes more sense than raising one and then another? You've already made it quite clear that you don't consider LSU an elite university. Why not make LSU elite, and then worry about a second institution?
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dewster
Maryland Fan
TN
Member since Aug 2006
4450 posts
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| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 12:46 pm to Doctor Radical)
quote:
If that's your measuring stick or your excuse, you're never going to move the state any better than Mississippi.
How is the poverty rate NOT an important factor behind the economic well being of a state asked to support better than a dozen public 4 year universities?
quote:
Both have a higher number of four-year institutions per capita than Louisiana (per my previous link).
Louisiana has 14 4 year schools if my count is accurate...and instead of concentrating efforts and resources of a very poor state to a limited number of colleges, the state spreads itself too thin for political reasons.
LSU and La-Tech would be better if several such institutions did not exist at all- which is why you see the cannabalization between the systems. In order to catch up to LSU, other systems actively work to dismantle the flagship.
This post was edited on 5/2 at 12:58 pm
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Doctor Radical
LSU Fan
Austin
Member since Feb 2008
10258 posts
| re: So LaTech wants to be flagship univ (Posted on 5/2/12 at 1:08 pm to Joshjrn)
quote:
Doc, as has been pointed out repeatedly, the number of private institutions is utterly irrelevant to this discussion.
I don't know that they are "irrelevant" as some private institutions receive some kind of state funding (either through financial aid or other items) but yes...that was part of my qualification above re the number of four year versus the number of publics.
quote:
Louisiana has an astounding number of public institutions based on our population size and poverty level.
Yup. 7th in the country per capita.
quote:
Why not make LSU elite, and then worry about a second institution?
I'm not sure two great public universities are mutually exclusive. It would take political will for one...so go for two.
Or, fund one adequately and create a competition pool of funds for the others...first one to "x" metric receives more funding, the loser loses.
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