Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant - Page 2 - TigerDroppings.com

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AlaTiger
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Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

and where does the concerted effort to maintain a legal contract system that excludes homosexuals fit into that?


I don't know. That really is not my focus, nor was it Savage's, if you watched the video. He makes a bunch of assertions about the Bible and its purported promotion of gay abuse and how we need to get over what it says on the issue entirely while using profanity and mocking those who silently protested his tirade.

The Bible clearly promotes marriage as being betwee a man and a woman - so does the rest of human history, by the way, as well as the collected wisdom of mankind. Many Christians do not believe that they are being particularly religious in wanting to see the civil situation regarding marriage continue on as it has.

But, there is not really any injunction in the New Testament to lobby the government to keep marriage between a man and a woman. I think that many, Christians and non-Christians alike are doing that so that America continue to reflect the perspective that marriage is between a man and a woman, which is not really a religious idea only.







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WikiTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
40721 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

The Bible clearly promotes marriage as being betwee a man and a woman - so does the rest of human history, by the way, as well as the collected wisdom of mankind.


I really wish I had time to discuss how truly wrong you are on all of those points.






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ottothewise
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2008
32094 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

. All people are made in God's image


the idea of God (in the bible) is based on peoples' ideas about people. authoritarian daddy, who goes off if you cross him.







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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

I really wish I had time to discuss how truly wrong you are on all of those points.







Yeah, but I'm not wrong. Does the Bible promote marriage between a man and a man? No. Does the Bible promote polygamy? Nope. It allowed it for a time, but from Genesis 1 and after Christ, marriage is clearly between one man and one woman. Things went bad after Genesis 3 - the Bible calls it sin and everything was distorted. But, Christ sets things right and restores marriage to its original intent, as we see in Ephesians 5.

You can disagree with it if you like - I know you do. But, that is what it says.

As for the rest of the world, yes, the common arrangement is that marriage is between a man and a woman. Are there aberrations? Of course, just as homosexuality now is an aberration. But, I am talking about the norm and what has been generally affirmed. The fact that you can bring out exceptions to the rule as anthropologists have done in depicting human behavior actually only proves the rule - the exception is only notable because it is an exception.






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baytiger
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Dec 2007
43324 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

He is right about one thing, however. If homosexuality is going to be approved of by everyone, then no one can believe the Bible and Christianity. It is clear that that is his goal.



that's not his goal at all.

His goal is to point out that there's a lot of stupid shite in the bible that even the most devout Christians no longer believe or follow, and one day soon, hatred of homosexuals will rank among them.






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Blue Velvet
Colorado State Fan
Kenai, Alaska
Member since Nov 2009
15525 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

My point is that the Bible, especially in the New Testament, sets up an ethic that tears all of those injustices down - if followed. People have not followed it, however.
Is there any part of the New Testament that you do not believe in?






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baytiger
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Dec 2007
43324 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

Does the Bible promote marriage between a man and a man? No. Does the Bible promote polygamy? Nope.


How many wives did Solomon have?


And Lot's family is fine with incest!






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

the idea of God (in the bible) is based on peoples' ideas about people. authoritarian daddy, who goes off if you cross him.



That's fine, Otto. I know what you think. But, the point is that Dan Savage is wrong about what the Bible actually teaches Christians to do in relation to homosexuals. It does not tell us to beat them or persecute them or abuse them or destroy them and bringing up shellfish or stoning adulterers, or how some used the Bible to justify slavery does not prove his point.

In other words, he is wrong.

But, it is clear that his agenda is to eliminate belief in the Bible so that homosexuality will be considered the norm.






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DCRebel
Georgetown Fan
An office somewhere
Member since Aug 2009
17208 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

1. Laws against eating shellfish were Jewish dietary laws not followed by Christians.


That being the case, then Christians aren't allowed to cite Leviticus' teachings ever. Period.

If you're going to ignore some aspects of the book (no tattoos, no shellfish), then you can't just turn around and say "well it says don't be a fag." It's hypocrisy. If you're going to use the Bible to bash gays, at least use Romans.

Even then though, if the only basis you can give for condemning homosexuality is your religion, then you frankly don't have a good reason to condemn it.

quote:

As for persecution of homosexuals, Jesus commanded his followers to pray for their enemies, love their enemies, and bless those who persecute you. He commanded that we turn the other cheek and not engage in violence.


What Jesus has commanded Christians to do is VASTLY different from what Christians actually do. We all know this. I don't argue that a lot of the things Jesus preached were (and still are) pretty radical, but that's besides the point.

quote:

As for his mention of slavery, pro-raced based slavery advocates were wrong to use Scripture as a defense. Slavery in Biblical times was completely different from race-based slavery in the United States in the 1800's.


Again, that doesn't matter. The fact is that Christian teachings were used as a justification for slavery by some people and churches. It doesn't matter if you, in 2012, understand the historical contexts and nuances behind the slavery mentioned in the Bible, because that doesn't at all change the fact that, yes, some slaveholders and bigots have justified their actions via Christianity.






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magildachunks
Member since Oct 2006
11070 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

It does not tell us to beat them or persecute them or abuse them or destroy them and bringing up shellfish or stoning adulterers, or how some used the Bible to justify slavery does not prove his point.



In other words: The Bible tells us to be Buddhists.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

His goal is to point out that there's a lot of stupid shite in the bible that even the most devout Christians no longer believe or follow, and one day soon, hatred of homosexuals will rank among them.


Well, the Bible tells me right now not to hate homosexuals or anyone else for that matter, so I don't really need Dan Savage's mocking of Scripture and calling it bullsh-t to tell me that, do I?

Matthew 5:21-21 "21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:38-48 "38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[g] 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

This is the same Bible that says that homosexuality is a sin. So, if I follow Scripture, I can see that homosexuality is sin, yet still love and not hate homosexuals and not seek to harm them in any way. That is the nuance that Savage and others don't understand.

He should be appealing to what Scripture says about how we are to treat people, even the enemies of God and our own enemies - with sacrifical love. But, to do that, Savage would have to give the Bible authority and he does not want to come under its authority - it condemns his lifestyle.

So, instead, Savage mischaracterizes and mocks it before high school students and then insults those who take issue with his bigotry by calling them pansy asses with his microphone as they gathered in the hallway in silent opposition to his lies.






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DCRebel
Georgetown Fan
An office somewhere
Member since Aug 2009
17208 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:



Or William Wilberforce and the entire abolitionist movement was wrong to use the Bible as their foundation and justification?


So? This is the "religion of peace" argument. "Ignore all of the bad things that have been done in the name of my religion because... um... oh, look, here's a good person who adheres to it and here's a good deed done in its name."






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

That being the case, then Christians aren't allowed to cite Leviticus' teachings ever. Period.


No, you appeal to the parts that are lasting and are affirmed later under the New Covenant, as you already mentioned regarding Romans. Citing Leviticus just shows that the teaching against homosexuality was not specific to the culture addressed in Romans but was long lasting throughout cultures and times.

quote:

What Jesus has commanded Christians to do is VASTLY different from what Christians actually do. We all know this. I don't argue that a lot of the things Jesus preached were (and still are) pretty radical, but that's besides the point.


Not really. People have used the bible to justify whatever they want to and they have often ignored the teachings of Jesus. But, what does he really say? That is the question. The Crusades, slavery, subjugation of women, etc., were all used by people mishandling the Bible. That does not make the Bible invalid, especially when time and study and the work of Christians using the Bible correctly overthrew those situations and brough justice. You can't just leave out that point either. Abolitionists used the Bible too.







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baytiger
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Dec 2007
43324 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:



So? This is the "religion of peace" argument. "Ignore all of the bad things that have been done in the name of my religion because... um... oh, look, here's a good person who adheres to it and here's a good deed done in its name."



The bible says that we shouldn't hate homosexuals, therefore no christians hate homosexuals, despite all of them condemning homosexuals to an eternity of torture and suffering.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

In other words: The Bible tells us to be Buddhists.


No it does not. It does tell us to be peaceful, though.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

So? This is the "religion of peace" argument. "Ignore all of the bad things that have been done in the name of my religion because... um... oh, look, here's a good person who adheres to it and here's a good deed done in its name."


No. I am not telling you to ignore anything. The Bible teaches that all people are sinners and their actions are marred and depraved. The fact that people have done bad things with the Bible is what you would expect and is what the Bible says is going to happen. But, the fact that people have also done good things with the Bible through actually following its teachings instead of twisting them is not what you would expect. Human depravity is provable. Righteousness and self-sacrifice comes from someplace else - the Bible says it comes from Jesus.

As far as what Muslims say or do, I am not really talking about that. But, I will say that I do not condemn every Muslim for what Al Quaeda did nor do I think that every Muslim is trying to kill me.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

The bible says that we shouldn't hate homosexuals, therefore no christians hate homosexuals, despite all of them condemning homosexuals to an eternity of torture and suffering.


I don't know if people hate homosexuals or not, but the Bible does say that if you hate your brother, the love of God is not in you. If you hate people, you are in danger yourself of the fires of hell, so it is not a good practice.

As for Christians condemning homosexuals to hell, that is not what happens. People condemn themselves to hell when they reject Christ and reject God's offer of salvation through Him. It is not within my scope of authority to reject anyone.

This is the problem with what Savage was doing. He has no idea what he is talking about and using the Bible poorly to score rhetorical points is exactly the behavior that he opposes.

He is the ultimate hypocrite.






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DA
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2007
16251 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


There's a good chance you are gay. You sound just like the preacher who rails against homosexuals, then gets caught in a men's rest room. There are even new studies about this "phenomenon."

Do you believe homosexuality is a choice that we make each day?





This post was edited on 4/30 at 3:05 pm


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baytiger
LSU Fan
Houston
Member since Dec 2007
43324 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:


This is the problem with what Savage was doing. He has no idea what he is talking about and using the Bible poorly to score rhetorical points is exactly the behavior that he opposes.
That's the fun part of the bible, though. No matter what you say about it, some other reader, somewhere, will claim that you don't know what you're talking about and that you're only wringing its words to "score rhetorical points" or somehow support your perception of reality.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13017 posts

re: Why Dan Savage Was 1000% WRONG in His Pro-Gay, Anti-Christian Rant


quote:

There's a good chance you are gay. You sound just like the preacher who rails against homosexuals, then get caught in a men's rest room. There are even new studies about this "phenomenon."


Ok. Because I am saying what the Bible says? I am responding to Dan Savage's mischaracterization of what the Bible teaches. Honestly, if it were up to me, I could care less what people do. I am pretty self-focused that way. But, Scripture teaches something different.

quote:

Do you believe homosexuality is a choice that we make each day?


No. I believe that it is a temptation that gets lodged into some people's minds because we are all sinners and all have the proclivity to sin and temptation can come in a million different forms. Once it is acted upon, then the desire for it gets stronger until it is no longer a choice but it is a lifestyle. Only the person and work of Jesus can free someone from it. That is what the Bible teaches.

If this is a political argument, I have no real dispute with homosexuals who want their rights protected as citizens of the United States. But, when you start mischaracterizing Scripture to make your point, you are in the wrong.






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