re: Much Needed Clarity Regarding the Pope and the Recent Document Regarding Blessings

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“well, that’s wrong because i say it is”.

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This is EXACTLY how Martin Luther and John Calvin operated!

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Just because you say it doesn't doesn't mean it doesn't.

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Just a point of clarification. It's not because I say it doesn't. It's because it, in fact, DOES NOT articulate "scripture alone". The text on the page does not say what you believe.

We can rest in our different beliefs, but my statement about the scripture you posted isn't a matter of opinion.

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your issue is putting scripture, the church and traditions all together like they should be. just like grace, faith and works. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic church gave us the bible in 397 AD when they approved it. Even paul stated follow the traditions I taught you by word of mouth or by letter. That debunks sola scriptura as well.

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So, are no Roman Catholic traditions wrong?? All perfect??
What "letters" was Paul referring to?

Many times in the gospels, Jesus taught against following traditions created by men. John chapters 9 & 10 there are obvious examples. My caution with the Roman Catholic church is that there are so many complex traditions that are not found in scripture but claim there authority based on vague references to scripture. Even the Eastern Orthodox does not follow many. Sorry for not being blind to thoughtful debate but I trust the words that are recorded in the bible. Roman Catholic traditions are mostly reliable but like C.S. Lewis, there is plenty of traditions to question.

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Men who actually lived with Jesus for years wrote down his words

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From a historical perspective, this isn't true.

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We weren't speaking of traditions.

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Yes we were (or at least bizeagle and I were).

Am I going to have to cite the Catholic Answers articles again? Okay, fine. Here's what we mean by Sacred Tradition.

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Jesus is THE Word of God. He handed down to the Apostles everything they needed to keep His Church going and growing. The Church grew. The Apostles preached and teached - handing down what Christ taught them by word and deed. The Apostles ordained new bishops, presbyters (priests) and deacons, and these new clergymen practiced what Christ handed down by word and deed. We have the Early Church writings. We know that what they practiced WRT the Eucharist and Baptism (for example) are what the RCC today practices.

Later on, the first words of the New Testament were written down.

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I don't think you get to just suggest that Catholics stop pressing on the most glaring weakness of sola scriptura.

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I can suggest whatever I please. It's a bad argument because the attack against sola scriptura cuts against your Catholic sola eclessia.

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What you are calling "confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in the RCC" (1) does not undermine Church's teaching authority as stated by the Church

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The Scriptures undermine the kind of authority that Rome asserts for itself. However, my argument wasn't that the "confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in the RCC" was an evidence against authority (that's a different line of argumentation), but an argument against the notion that the Roman church is a bastion of clarity and unity over and against the Protestants, who have no unity or clarity at all. If the appeal of Rome is that you'll have unity and clarity, then that's a shallow claim.

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and (2 - more importantly) is absolutely minuscule when compared to confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity that exists among protestants who hold to sola scriptura.

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But just saying you're comparatively better isn't what Catholics assert. The sales pitch is that Protestants should join with Rome because she is the same for the past 2,000 years (which is not true), and she provides the unity that Protestants lack, and she provides the clarity that Protestants lack. The claim isn't just that there is more unity or more clarity, but that Rome should be absolutely preferred because Protestants lack those things and therefore Rome doesn't.

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And it's very fair for Catholics to point it out. The only, logical end of sola scriptura is what we see in Protestantism today: disunity. Because, like it or not, scripture taken in a vacuum can and will be interpreted in many ways. Again, I point to modern adherents of sola scriptura as proof of this.

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The only logical end of mankind this side of heaven is disunity. You can't get around that by forcing everyone to be members of the Roman church. Like I said, the Catholic claim is shallow because there isn't total unity within Catholicism. There wasn't unity of belief on even later-defined dogmas in the early church, and there have been dissenters on things like the inclusion of the deuterocanonical books even up until Trent by faithful Catholics.

What you are essentially hanging your hat on is the organizational structure of Catholicism and claiming there is unity there. While that may be true, that doesn't mean there is unity within that organization by those who profess allegiance to that organization. Even your Pope is viewed as a disgrace by more conservative Catholics, so clearly there isn't the type of unity that you all hold up against Protestants. It's superficial.

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There's that phrase again. Catholics don't believe in sola eclessia. You're attacking a Catholic doctrine which doesn't exist.

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I think that's called the Strawman method of argument, which is intellectually dishonest and intended to be so. Strawman arguments are intended to persuade by misleading.

Sola Scriptura debunks itself, and that is demonstrated by many fine well-written articles on Catholic Answers.

Many of us have explained here on PT why Sola Scriptura doesn't work. We have pointed out that it was a totally unknown Theological foundation for over Fifteen Centuries after Christ. We have pointed out how illogical it would be for Almighty God to delay revelation such an important theological foundation for 1,500 years, thus keeping His people in the theological darkness for over 1,500 years after Christ.

It's a lie to argue that the RCC lacks unity. The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is the Unity of the Church. It is published. This is what the Church believes. This RCC Catechism is something that absolutely no other Protestant sect possesses, because the Catechism is so thoroughly written, researched and footnoted, with references to the Bible, to history and to the Church Fathers and other early church figures who were not Church Fathers.

HERE is our Unity on-line and free for all to read.

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