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Speaker (high-ish end) Repair/replacement options/eBay Scenario

Posted on 7/24/15 at 1:26 am
Posted by Hopeful Doc
Member since Sep 2010
14965 posts
Posted on 7/24/15 at 1:26 am
Hello all, I'll be dual-posting this on the Music Board as well, and I'm not really sure which group of posters would be the better one to answer this. There's a handful of audio/cinephiles around here. And a fair number of handy folks as well who may know a thing or two about speakers.


I just bought a used B&W HTM Matrix (800-series center channel from a few generations ago) off ebay. Long story short, it came with a dead tweeter (literally no sound from tweeter when amped, identical tweeter from 803m puts out sound. It's not the crossover, the problem is isolated to the tweeter. And, if not obvious from the other tweeter putting out sound, the correct set of terminals is amped (bi-wire/bi-amp terminals). I paid $325 for the 17-year old speaker. The replacement tweeter is listed at $362 from B&W. It's not listed anywhere else. There is one site who mentions they have one in stock but doesn't have a price. The seller is on top of his game- he's apologized, offered to pay for a reasonable replacement/repair. And he's even contacted that store that I mentioned.

Now, I did go ahead and pull it apart after noticing the price of just a new diaphragm was $50. The original diaphragm had a small dent that was easily pressed back out. The cabling all seems to be in place and terminated on both ends (molex on the plug side, terminated in an unusual push-on connector on the other end. The coil did have a single loose loop of copper that I went ahead and placed back around the loop. The magnet...well, it worked just fine. There were no obvious defects other than the small dent in the metal-coned diaphragm.

My questions:
1) Does this sound like it's a diaphragm vs coil issue?
2) Repairing the diaphragm for $50 (his) is easy and within the realm of what I'm willing to do. A coil, however, is well beyond what I'm willing to try to rebuild/repair. Will a stereo shop recoil a speaker? And, more importantly, will they do this kind of repair for anything significantly under $360? My guess is that he's probably willing to put up $50-100. For the sake of it already being here in my house and the cost/effort to ship it back, I'd probably be willing to put up another ~$50 of my own.
3) Am I an idiot and missing something? I'm positive the tweeter isn't functioning and the box's internal path is fine. There are no obvious signal path disruptions in the tweeter itself. But am I forgetting a fairly obvious reason why two separate identical tweeters would work, but the one that shipped with it didn't? Is there anything else I should try? I don't have a way to measure voltages or resistances on the speaker.
4) Anyone know of a reputable repair shop that won't cost me > the cost of a new tweeter (Heck, I could actually buy another one of these for $290 before dropping $360 on a new tweeter.) anywhere between ~Houston-NOLA? I travel that corridor pretty frequently and wouldn't mind a trip anywhere there for repairs.

Any advice appreciated. I'll be checking back in later on in the morning.








I knew I should've stuck with the 2.0 setup instead of this 5.0 nonsense. The things I do for off-axis movie-viewers I love...
Posted by Marco Esquandolas
Member since Jul 2013
11427 posts
Posted on 7/24/15 at 7:15 pm to
Take the tweeter out of the other cabinet and make sure it works in the problem cabinet. If it does, I would jus nut up and get a new tweeter.

I will try to look up the number of the U.S. Importer for B&W and post it later. The importer is where one usually gets OEM replacement parts for high end audio.

I had to go through Audio Plus Services in Canada to replace a Berryllium tweeter in my Focal Utopias. I poked a hole in the tweeter with the claw of a tape measure THE DAY I BOUGHT THEM when measuring the set up placement!!

The replacement was exact, albeit $1400 for the tweeter.
The newer B&W Diamond tweeters cost about that much to replace as well.

Posted by Marco Esquandolas
Member since Jul 2013
11427 posts
Posted on 7/24/15 at 7:17 pm to
You can also haggle a bit with the importer as they don't sell retail--they sell to dealers who then sell to consumers...you may ask them to knock $50 or so off.

I don't trust eBay for anything audio--everyone is full of shite.

This post was edited on 7/24/15 at 7:19 pm
Posted by Hopeful Doc
Member since Sep 2010
14965 posts
Posted on 7/25/15 at 11:34 am to
Many, many thanks. I tried to keep the first post as short as possible, but I did take the 803 tweeter and place it on the HTM (problem) cabinet- it worked fine. Heck, it sounded pretty good. I even double-checked, since I am driving this all off a fairly inexpensive/low-fi home theatre receiver (looking to replace it with a Marantz sr500(7-9) in the next two months and then be able to add a real amp from there), and plugged the output for the center into the R main, and the R main into the center. The result was that I wish I had another 803 for a center channel- it sounded pretty darn good, too.
So I've isolated the problem to somewhere between the molex leads for the tweeter to the diaphragm. The seller has offered to pick up the tab on the repair at The Speaker Exchange in Tampa, FL. The person he spoke with their seems to think it could be a poorly soldered lead (I took it apart and looked. I don't see any disfiguration/broken solder/etc. And the lead is a push-connect of some sort, but I don't know the technical name for it. Unless the solder is broken as it goes into the connector, it's not the issue. But that's what the seller would like to do, so that's what is going to happen). Good to know about the haggling with the importer if I can find them. That will be my next choice.

And my lesson has been learned about eBay. I used HiFi Shark to scrape a bunch of websites to find this thing- there's one that's been on US Audio Mart's website for several months, and then they only really pop up every few weeks or so. It's seemingly rare to find one for sale, so I got excited when I saw a slightly cheaper option. I'll stick to the more reputable Audiogon and the likes from now on.

At least the guy selling has been really helpful and sending me messages quite frequently to try to make it right. I can't say a bad thing about him, other than he sold me a speaker that doesn't have a functioning tweeter.

This post was edited on 7/25/15 at 11:35 am
Posted by Marco Esquandolas
Member since Jul 2013
11427 posts
Posted on 7/25/15 at 1:48 pm to
Just be aware that many of the newer Marantz amps are not designed to drive a 4 ohm load...that is one reason they are not expensive.

A speakers impedance load to the amp is constantly changing every millisecond. So, speakers are usually rated with a nominal, or average impedance.

Why is this important, you ask?

My big Focal Utopias you see in the other thread that are in my primary McIntosh system are rated at 8 ohm nominal--but the Berryllium tweeter will drop as low as 2.6 ohms at times!! Holy impedance curves Batman!

You have to have an amplifier that can handle the wicked load thrown at it. Will your speakers still play music with an amp that is capable of 8 ohm only? Sure. But it takes everything out of the transformers and will lead to premature clipping of the amp as well as a tinny sound as volumes increase. (You will notice on a heavy Iron Maiden listening session!).

This occurs in many speakers and is why I will suggest you look at an amplifier that will handle a 4 ohm load and also almost double power (in watts) while doing so.

Take a look at Odyssey amps... HERE
They have a few models and are sold direct--there are a couple guys in the GNO Audio Society running these amps--one of them on a $70k set of Wilson Audio MAXX III speakers. You can also add upgrades to thes amps at the time of the build.

If you want to give me a price range and tell me more about your usage requirements, I will be happy to link you to a few amps. I go to the audio shows around the country and throughout the years and have met most of the designers and manufacturers of hundreds of audio companies over the years--so I keep up with all this stuff and may be able to throw some suggestions your way.

What model are those B&W you just bought? I will pull the Stereophile review from back in the day where they did extended measurements on them and find out the low impedance point on them for you.

Posted by Marco Esquandolas
Member since Jul 2013
11427 posts
Posted on 7/25/15 at 1:56 pm to
I just realized that the speaker you bought is a single center channel, not a pair of Matrix 800--my bad reading!

That is why I previously told you to take tweeter from good speaker and try in bad (I assumed there were 2).

Is the amp you are looking to buy a 2 channel or 5 channel?
Posted by Hopeful Doc
Member since Sep 2010
14965 posts
Posted on 7/25/15 at 4:10 pm to
quote:

If you want to give me a price range and tell me more about your usage requirements, I will be happy to link you to a few amps.

Is the amp you are looking to buy a 2 channel or 5 channel?



You were actually kind enough to do this for me in the "post pics of your system" thread a while back; I just haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I've got the link saved. I'm looking heavily at the Odyssey ones you have posted above here as well as the Krell-KAV 400xi (integrated, has balanced ins for in case I ever want to get really fancy). I think the absolute max would be around $1200, don't mind used stuff at all if it comes from somewhere reputable (though after this fiasco, even a highly-rated eBayer isn't getting a second look from me). I'm real new to this "job" and "disposable income" thing, so I'm taking it slowly. The main application is music in stereo, source is from a computer, and it's connected via HDMI. The same computer is a Windows computer with Media Center and serves as my DVR, also my Blu Ray/DVD player. So, given that, I'm really looking at stereo amps, and I'll worry about adding some power behind the center/surrounds if it needs it- I'm not a huge cinephile, and the 5-channel is more of an "added plus" than a real necessity.

Now, I just can't get around the need for a nicer AVR before upgrading anything else. $500 on a refurbished Marantz Sr5009 will not be particularly better sounding than a Sony receiver (definitely won't be worse), but it will keep me with a 5-channel amp and add upgradeability options. I just can't get around that necessity for the time being unless I can find a multi-ch amp that will beat the Odyssey you linked or a KAV400xi at that same price point.



quote:

I just realized that the speaker you bought is a single center channel, not a pair of Matrix 800--my bad reading!

That is why I previously told you to take tweeter from good speaker and try in bad (I assumed there were 2).


Per my investigation, the Matrix 801/802 used a common tweeter, but the 803 (which I have a pair of) 804, 805, and HTM (which is just a re-oriented 805) all use the same tweeter- their website lists the part as the same for each, and the tweeter from my 803 definitely works on the center.


ETA- yoir thoroughness and helpfulness is, as always, greatly appreciated.
This post was edited on 7/25/15 at 10:22 pm
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