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re: Why does the healthcare debate essentially revolve around like 4% of Americans?

Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:27 pm to
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9902 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:27 pm to
There ain't no free lunches, Hail. Their quality measures are good. Of course people grumble about their healthcare worldwide, but they have favorable patient satisfaction and for much cheaper.
Posted by clooneyisgod
Member since Feb 2006
7838 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:30 pm to
quote:


Seems like charities should be more than capable of handling the 4%.


Have you ever seen a hospital bill for a basic overnight stay? I saw a bill today for over $100K for an outpatient procedure. I do not think charities can do what you are suggesting they can do.
This post was edited on 9/20/17 at 9:35 pm
Posted by BBONDS25
Member since Mar 2008
48278 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:31 pm to
quote:

100K for an outpatient procedure. I do not think charities can do what you are suggesting to they can do.


bullshite.

Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:31 pm to
Nothing in latest bill cuts costs to us at your md office or hospital or price of drugs.
Not for anyone.

There is no debate in gop about how to cut your costs. Its not a topic of interest.

The republican topic is how to cut budget of usa.
Screw the poor is main theme.
Screw elderly middle class a close second.

Posted by BBONDS25
Member since Mar 2008
48278 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:33 pm to
Otto...you have zero capacity to understand the bill. Just go work on your shitty Haikus.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69282 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:35 pm to
quote:

but they have favorable patient satisfaction and for much cheaper.




A lot of it is because American consumers are suckers for the best and most shiny new medical technology or method, even though older and cheaper methods are just as reliable.

Americans WANT the most sophisticated stuff, even if it costs a lot more and has marginal benefits compared to older stuff.

That applies to doctors, too. Americans are MUCH MUCH more likely to be referred to a specialist than a patient in a European nation.

In Europe, GPs play a much larger role.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9902 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:36 pm to
If you treat insurance like a commodity you can rationalize excluding people from it on the basis of price like with any other commodity. Of course.

But this is not what countries with universal healthcare systems do. They start with the notion that ensuring access to quality healthcare to their citizens is a civic obligation of the government - as a public good in the same way that they provide infrastructure, defense, and so on.

France gets better marks than we do on most measures on which healthcare systems are measured, as do all these other countries.

Posted by BBONDS25
Member since Mar 2008
48278 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:37 pm to
How many users are in those country's systems? Come on Doc...stop lobbing softballs
Posted by Dale51
Member since Oct 2016
32378 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:37 pm to
quote:


Bull shite.


That^
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9902 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:40 pm to
quote:

Americans WANT the most sophisticated stuff, even if it costs a lot more and has marginal benefits compared to older stuff.

That applies to doctors, too. Americans are MUCH MUCH more likely to be referred to a specialist than a patient in a European nation.

In Europe, GPs play a much larger role.


I agree. We get way too much high-cost, low-value healthcare here. Whenever we try to implement sensible restrictions like NICE does in the UK, though, American interests including device manufacturers, pharma, etc., demagogue based on our fear of government since who wants to think a government bureaucracy knows better than their friendly PCP.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69282 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:42 pm to
quote:

TigerDoc
I suggest you research how WHO and Commonwealth fund do their studies.

There is a reason WHO hasn't released new rankings in more than a decade: the method is shoddy as hell.

quote:

In 2000, when the report was issued, WHO was run by Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former prime minister of Norway and a socialist. She doesn’t think the results of a health system alone are important. Rather, she wants to know if the system is “fair.” In introducing the WHO report she wrote that while the goal of a health system “is to improve and protect health,” it also has “other intrinsic goals [that] are concerned with fairness in the way people pay for health care.” She is clear about the ideological factors she thinks are important: “Where health and responsiveness are concerned, achieving a high average level is not good enough: the goals of a health system must also include reducing inequalities, in ways that improve the situation of the worst-off. In this report attainment in relation to these goals provides the basis for measuring the performance of health systems


quote:

The 37th place ranking is often cited in today's overhaul debate, even though, in some ways, the U.S. actually ranked a lot higher. Specifically, it placed 15th overall, based on its performance in the five criteria. But for the most widely publicized form of its rankings, the WHO took the additional step of adjusting for national health expenditures per capita, to calculate each country's health-care bang for its bucks. Because the U.S. ranked first in spending, that adjustment pushed its ranking down to 37th


NC_Tigah summarized the bs report:

quote:

So these 5 criterion put together by a Malignant Norwegian Socialist Bitch drove US HealthCare down to "15th" in the world, and only THEN she factored in cost to drop us further to 37th.
Right?

Well . . .

. . not exactly.


COST HAD ALREADY BEEN FACTORED IN.

====================

Ranking Criterion for the 2000 WHO Report was conducted as follows:

25% of the ranking was judged on Responsiveness. "Responsiveness" was basically a consumer heath care rating score with cost elements factored in. The derivation of that score was never fully revealed.

25% of the rankings measured life expectancy stats. These stats too had little to do with quality of care. Life expectancy of course is influenced by factors such as murder rate, obesity, alcohol consumption, AND MILITARY RELATED CASUALTIES none of which address quality of care.

For example, the fact that America has the BEST survival rate OF ALL COUNTRIES for 13 of 16 cancer types was considered unimportant to the WHO. Similar results for Cardiac Care, Neonatal Care, etc were not remotely considered.

25% of the ranking was based on the uniformity of healthcare distribution. In other words, no matter the quality of care, as long as it was the same for each citizen, scoring in this category was very high. Since this is the law in Norway, this category helped the study's organizers raise their home country (Norway) significantly in the ratings.

25% was based on financial fairness as assessed by WHO criterion. More expensive treatments dropped nations in this category.

Thus, 75% or more of the ranking was not linked to quality of care at all, and most of that was related to cost assessment. In fact the WHO studdy was flatly rigged. All countries with socialized medicine would rank higher than the U.S. solely because they have socialized medicine. It does not matter if the quality of care is piss poor. So long as everyone gets that piss poor healthcare coverage, that country would receive max points for healthcare distribution

====================

Yet the US STILL RANKED FIFTEENTH!!!!

Given the rigged nature of the report, that is almost unbelievable.

It was not until costs were factored in a second time that we were dropped to 37th.

Any questions as to why that report was never generated again after 2000?
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9902 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:45 pm to
Even if I accepted the premise that European system quality couldn't be fully scaled up to our population we could still get better access, less cost growth, and similar quality to what we have now. But we'd have to make peace with the idea that po' folks deserve care. It's a hard lift, I know.
Posted by BBONDS25
Member since Mar 2008
48278 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:47 pm to
Please. Don't use the trite talking points. Nobody is denied care. Do you deny people care?

Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:49 pm to
Hgh25


There has never been one word about cost to consumer of heath care by gop.
Instead the proposal caps spending per capita.
It just means states will get less money to spend on medicaid people.
There is nothing in it that reduces the costs of services.



This post was edited on 9/20/17 at 9:50 pm
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69282 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:50 pm to
quote:

less cost growth


Surprised that a doc isn't up to date on this .

American healthcare cost growth is, and has been for some time, WELL IN LINE with OECD average, actually below it.

Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9902 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:51 pm to
Sure, of course for any two people to accept the validity of ranking system they need to basically agree on the criteria. I regard equity as a fair criterion because I accept a Rawlsian philosophy that a system should be judged based on how it serves anyone that might be born into it. If you don't care about fairness, that's your prerogative.
Posted by BBONDS25
Member since Mar 2008
48278 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:53 pm to
quote:

Hgh25


It was flaxseed oil. And I still think you need to work on your shitty haikus. You aren't all there and details of healthcare bills just don't seem to be your forte.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
9902 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:53 pm to
quote:

Please. Don't use the trite talking points. Nobody is denied care. Do you deny people care?


People are denied care from reaching me every day. We have staff who's job it is to verify insurance and collect payment. People are told seek care elsewhere.
Posted by BBONDS25
Member since Mar 2008
48278 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:54 pm to
quote:

you don't care about fairness,


Here I was thinking we are talking about insurance. Silly me.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69282 posts
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:54 pm to
quote:

I regard equity as a fair criterion because I accept a Rawlsian philosophy that a system should be judged based on how it serves anyone that might be born into it. If you don't care about fairness, that's your prerogative.


Such a ranking system would put the soviet union near the top of every ranking from healthcare to consumer good access to education.
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