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re: Where has the Voucher System been effective exactly?
Posted on 4/24/14 at 2:24 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 4/24/14 at 2:24 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Such a sad POV.
I think you are a bit delusional on this topic. Schools are like any other business, they are only as effective as the clientele they serve
Giving WalMart shoppers gift cards to Nordstroms will not magically improve their behavior, nor the environment at the new store they frequent, or the WalMart they left behind.
Look at any old neighborhood. As the landlords began accepting govt "vouchers" the neighborhoods died (see Detroit). It did not change their poor decisions, nor improve (or even maintain) the neighborhood, nor the housing unit the renters left behind
Its just life
As Christ said, the poor you will have with you always. Meaning - people have to want to improve. Simply giving them silver or gold as they continue to sit on the corner, does not change their life
Some school, some where, vouchers or not, have to serve the kids who parents are absent or just don't care. There is no permanent solution for that level of apathy
1
Posted on 4/24/14 at 2:57 pm to League Champs
quote:A bit like saying kids don't benefit from good parenting. Of course kids benefit from an optimal student-school match. Of course they benefit from schools attentive and responsive to their needs. Of course they benefit from systems willing to push them.
I think you are a bit delusional on this topic. Schools are like any other business, they are only as effective as the clientele they serve
For example, you can take a kid with a 90 IQ and force feed him into truancy with spoonfuls of our generic public school system, or you can run a targeted vocationally oriented program, teach him how to weld and make nearly six-figures/yr by his 30th B'day. On the flip side you can assess every innercity kid as a "dysfunctional" as CT does. In that instance the occasional student with a 115 IQ gets cast away while teachers are addressing other classroom issues.
The general concept is not to turn chickenshit into chickensalad, but rather to understand chickenshit might have a different value. It can make good fertilizer which in turn can help grow a great garden, and gardens produce salad.
School choice allows personalized matching of school strengths with student interest and capability. That enhances performance. It also encourages student-parent buy-in. That is how schools are effective.
This post was edited on 4/24/14 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 4/24/14 at 3:11 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
School choice allows personalized matching of school strengths with student interest and capability. That enhances performance. It also encourages student-parent buy-in. That is how schools are effective.
Excellent point and mostly an underrated one.
And not only student-parent buy-in, but also teacher-administrator buy-in. If the school knows that it's student body are there by choice, they can use that as motivation for themselves and in dealing with the students and parents.
Posted on 4/24/14 at 3:48 pm to Zach
quote:
Zach
Where has the Voucher System been effective exactly?
The Voucher System as outlined by it's creator, Milton Friedman, has never been tried... anywhere. So we cannot say how effective it's been.
The voucher systems that have been implemented are designed to allow mobility for kids in failing school districts. Friedman said that for vouchers to work they have to be available to EVERYONE. It's not supposed to be a tool for equality or social engineering. It's designed to introduce free market forces into K-12 which historically is FAR from free market.
this is what i was saying ... throwing a few charters in there does not equal "choice" ...
indiana has probably made the biggest step towards vouchers, but i haven't read anything on them in a while ...
Posted on 4/24/14 at 3:54 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
On the flip side you can assess every innercity kid as a "dysfunctional" as CT does.
Why the need to lie to try to make your point. I've never said any such thing.
quote:
School choice allows personalized matching of school strengths with student interest and capability.
So a parent with an 85IQ decides her cognitively deficient child should be a physicist and we should give this child a voucher to enroll in a school for those with gifted mathematical and science abilities? Uneducated parents are really qualified to make these choices.
If we want to fix education we should return to neighborhood schools not try to fix a system the Federal Government broke in many places with charters and vouchers, both loaded politically.
Parents should be able to choose where they live and have certainty of the public school their children will attend.
Posted on 4/24/14 at 3:56 pm to Jimbeaux
quote:
Excellent point and mostly an underrated one.
How does this work where every child has the right to go to the best school in the political district?
quote:
If the school knows that it's student body are there by choice,
Why won't every child choose to go to a school that other people have made excellent?
Posted on 4/24/14 at 3:58 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
CarrolltonTiger
Where has the Voucher System been effective exactly?
quote:
On the flip side you can assess every innercity kid as a "dysfunctional" as CT does.
Why the need to lie to try to make your point. I've never said any such thing.
quote:
School choice allows personalized matching of school strengths with student interest and capability.
So a parent with an 85IQ decides her cognitively deficient child should be a physicist and we should give this child a voucher to enroll in a school for those with gifted mathematical and science abilities? Uneducated parents are really qualified to make these choices.
If we want to fix education we should return to neighborhood schools not try to fix a system the Federal Government broke in many places with charters and vouchers, both loaded politically.
Parents should be able to choose where they live and have certainty of the public school their children will attend.
lol ... the feds haven't broken anything ... the few dollars a district receives for this or that is not the reason the schools are f'ed up ... and the feds haven't given out vouchers outside of dc, to my knowledge ... not sure how that f'ed up anything ...
Posted on 4/24/14 at 4:01 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
Why the need to lie to try to make your point. I've never said any such thing.
quote:You were saying something about not writing off innercity kids?
Parents should be able to choose where they live and have certainty of the public school their children will attend.
Posted on 4/24/14 at 4:48 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
A bit like saying kids don't benefit from good parenting. Of course kids benefit from an optimal student-school match. Of course they benefit from schools attentive and responsive to their needs. Of course they benefit from systems willing to push them. For example, you can take a kid with a 90 IQ and force feed him into truancy with spoonfuls of our generic public school system, or you can run a targeted vocationally oriented program, teach him how to weld and make nearly six-figures/yr by his 30th B'day. On the flip side you can assess every innercity kid as a "dysfunctional" as CT does. In that instance the occasional student with a 115 IQ gets cast away while teachers are addressing other classroom issues. The general concept is not to turn chickenshit into chickensalad, but rather to understand chickenshit might have a different value. It can make good fertilizer which in turn can help grow a great garden, and gardens produce salad.
But but but the dysfunctionals, man. The DYSFUNCTIONALS!!!
Posted on 4/24/14 at 6:04 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
You were saying something about not writing off innercity kids?
Use the quote device A-hole, if you want to comment about something I write.
Driving functional children out of the public school system doesn't help the cognitively deficient. Functional parents care about their kids not sacrificing them on the altar of diversity. Inner city? Inner cities can have good schools if they have intelligent industrious children. Urban also doesn't mean dysfunctional.
Why are you opposed to choice for functional citizens? Why are you opposed ot neighborhood schools that worked for decades?
Why don't you stop misquoting, use words that have meaning and stop lying?
Posted on 4/24/14 at 7:28 pm to CarrolltonTiger
(no message)
This post was edited on 4/25/14 at 6:16 am
Posted on 4/24/14 at 9:00 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
School choice allows personalized matching of school strengths with student interest and capability. That enhances performance. It also encourages student-parent buy-in. That is how schools are effective.
You don't understand the history of school by making this statement
Schools were once only choice, with many parents not choosing to educate their children. Then one day a group of elitists had their outing ruined by inner city Jews, Italians, blacks and Irishmen who were running the streets being delinquents
So the mortified elites started the quest for public schools
Since public schools began, everyone in town knew which schools were the "good" schools, and which were opened just to corral the masses. And that system served as the best model in the world. Until . . .
The fed said "wait a minute", these kids are segregated by neighborhood. Well, duh. People that cared, busted their asses to move to the other side of the tracks. So we got forced busing. Standards fell, achievement fell, discipline became ungovernable. And private schools exploded. The question became, how do we get the masses into these good private schools. We have no right to force them to be bused in . . .
So now the catch phrase is no longer busing, its vouchers. With the predictable same result
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