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Started By
Message
War on Drugs: Part 2 Demand side.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 12:36 pm
Posted on 4/20/17 at 12:36 pm
I have seen a few people have a good conversation on how to handle the supply side. Here are the types from that thread
1- Those who agree with parts of an actual fight against the supply side.
2- Those that believe the supply side (mainly cartels and black market) will go away if we legalize it all and tax it.
3- Those who don't care about anything other than "I want whatever I want when I want it."
Obviously, we are in a bad time. More people died in 2015 than all of the 12 years in Vietnam overdosing from drugs. No, it wasn't prescribed drugs that caused it. Those levels are actually down from 2011s peak. It's the things in the streets.
So let's explore legalizing Drugs... ALL of them.
===========================================================
Portugal is used over and over as an example for success. So let's REALLY look at Portugal.
Decriminalization didn't really change that much in Portugal. There have been a lot of numbers thrown out there by people like Greenwald (writing for CATO) that want to legalize drugs. He presented his "Facts" from his desire for legalization, not from a total picture.
I have 2 major issues with his push.
1- He didn't present the facts. He presented what he wanted his readers to see.
2- His idea and plan for the US would dwarf any entitlement program the US has ever seen.
=========================================================
Realities of Portugal
1- Drug use went up. Among school students
there was an increase in every drug
category with cannabis skyrocketing
the charts with its 150% raise
2- Drug Trafficking went UP.
3- They stopped locking people up and it worked? No. They were never to the point of locking up people on the demand side.
4- Black market is 100% still there.
Just a quick search will prove that. It's the south American Cartels and Mexican cartels.... seized 340 kilograms of cocaine in Lisbon
In June 2015 They seized 1.5 TONS of Cocaine. Largest bust to date. LINK And they mention that a bust had just happened of 600KG..
This week... 1 KG inside his body
No death of the Cartels.
==========================================================
No longer locking people up and are using the money to help people
Let's start here because it's an important issue for both sides. That was a total lie on Greenwald's part. They were not locking them up to begin with.
The journal of the American Bar Foundation, found no evidence that Portugal actually changed its enforcement approach after the “radical decriminalization,” as Cato put it, of 2001. Examining the eight-year period prior to decriminalization, the Bar Foundation’s journal reported that the average number of people in Portuguese prisons for simple drug possession was about 21. Not 21 percent, but 21 people out of 10 million. That’s 0.00021 percent — effectively zero.
However, they are still people going to jail in Portugal for drug use. LINK
That's 389 people in jail vs 21 prior to "decriminalization". That's not even what EMCDDA says though. Their number has it higher!
Why does that matter?
It matters because the plan, even of those on this board, is to redirect funds from jailed drug users to pay for treatment centers based on Portugal. As you can see, that cost was not a cost to them at all before 2001, but it has increased since then (there is a reason, because more people are using) and in addition to that their gov pays 100% for all treatments. Btw, those treatments are not 100% effective either.
- More money now being spent in holding prisoners
- Massive entitlement program for users
- More users now added
===========================================================
But the Cartels will die out and therefore no money spent on fighting them
Not true, as you can see from the links above, it signaled to the Cartels that more people will use because of legalization.
They are pushing more and more into Portugal. It's had an effect too. Legalizing there has created more users, and done nothing but give cartels more money.
- No the cartels did not die
- The black Market is still there
===========================================================
But drug use went down
No it didn't. In fact Greenwald and others have this information, yet they don't present it. It has moved around based on trends with users. It's the "drug of the day"
To yell to the masses "Look!!! we told you and here is the proof! Cocaine use is down by 6%!" While not saying Heroin is up by 20% is lying.
In this, we are talking students.. ages 13-18. These stats go directly against what is being sold. "We are legalizing for Adults" is not an argument. Making them more available does indeed encourage experimentation.
Again, Portugal as a guide...
That is another issue. Why didn't the advocates of legalizing drugs include those younger than 15. It matters.
============================================================
Recap of facts
- They do lock people up for drugs. Therefore, they still have expenses for that.
- They created a 100% paid for by the federal Gov welfare system in the form of treatment.
- Cartels are making even more money
- Drugs are still making it's way there
- There is gang violence
I have not seen one argument presented here, or anywhere, that suggests legalization will help anything other than the satisfaction for those who want to use drugs and have the rest of America pay for their treatment.
Worded differently, people who are for smaller gov are ok with maintaining the prison system (because based on Portugal they still have it) and adding a huge gov system to handle mandated rehab attendance for the sole purpose of being allowed to use what ever drug they choose.
===========================================================
Part 2 below.
UPDATE: Please read the rebuttals before commenting, else you are rehashing the same things. some are in page 6
1- Those who agree with parts of an actual fight against the supply side.
2- Those that believe the supply side (mainly cartels and black market) will go away if we legalize it all and tax it.
3- Those who don't care about anything other than "I want whatever I want when I want it."
Obviously, we are in a bad time. More people died in 2015 than all of the 12 years in Vietnam overdosing from drugs. No, it wasn't prescribed drugs that caused it. Those levels are actually down from 2011s peak. It's the things in the streets.
So let's explore legalizing Drugs... ALL of them.
===========================================================
Portugal is used over and over as an example for success. So let's REALLY look at Portugal.
Decriminalization didn't really change that much in Portugal. There have been a lot of numbers thrown out there by people like Greenwald (writing for CATO) that want to legalize drugs. He presented his "Facts" from his desire for legalization, not from a total picture.
I have 2 major issues with his push.
1- He didn't present the facts. He presented what he wanted his readers to see.
2- His idea and plan for the US would dwarf any entitlement program the US has ever seen.
=========================================================
Realities of Portugal
1- Drug use went up. Among school students
there was an increase in every drug
category with cannabis skyrocketing
the charts with its 150% raise
2- Drug Trafficking went UP.
3- They stopped locking people up and it worked? No. They were never to the point of locking up people on the demand side.
4- Black market is 100% still there.
Just a quick search will prove that. It's the south American Cartels and Mexican cartels.... seized 340 kilograms of cocaine in Lisbon
In June 2015 They seized 1.5 TONS of Cocaine. Largest bust to date. LINK And they mention that a bust had just happened of 600KG..
This week... 1 KG inside his body
No death of the Cartels.
==========================================================
No longer locking people up and are using the money to help people
Let's start here because it's an important issue for both sides. That was a total lie on Greenwald's part. They were not locking them up to begin with.
The journal of the American Bar Foundation, found no evidence that Portugal actually changed its enforcement approach after the “radical decriminalization,” as Cato put it, of 2001. Examining the eight-year period prior to decriminalization, the Bar Foundation’s journal reported that the average number of people in Portuguese prisons for simple drug possession was about 21. Not 21 percent, but 21 people out of 10 million. That’s 0.00021 percent — effectively zero.
However, they are still people going to jail in Portugal for drug use. LINK
quote:
Of the 2,051 convicted individuals under the Drug Law 80% were convicted for traffic, 19% for use and 1% for traffic-use.
That's 389 people in jail vs 21 prior to "decriminalization". That's not even what EMCDDA says though. Their number has it higher!
Why does that matter?
It matters because the plan, even of those on this board, is to redirect funds from jailed drug users to pay for treatment centers based on Portugal. As you can see, that cost was not a cost to them at all before 2001, but it has increased since then (there is a reason, because more people are using) and in addition to that their gov pays 100% for all treatments. Btw, those treatments are not 100% effective either.
- More money now being spent in holding prisoners
- Massive entitlement program for users
- More users now added
===========================================================
But the Cartels will die out and therefore no money spent on fighting them
Not true, as you can see from the links above, it signaled to the Cartels that more people will use because of legalization.
They are pushing more and more into Portugal. It's had an effect too. Legalizing there has created more users, and done nothing but give cartels more money.
- No the cartels did not die
- The black Market is still there
===========================================================
But drug use went down
No it didn't. In fact Greenwald and others have this information, yet they don't present it. It has moved around based on trends with users. It's the "drug of the day"
To yell to the masses "Look!!! we told you and here is the proof! Cocaine use is down by 6%!" While not saying Heroin is up by 20% is lying.
quote:
"In the context of school populations, the results of national studies have shown that the use of drugs that had been increasing since the 90’s declined for the first time in 2006 and 2007, noting up in 2010 and 2011 again an increase of drug use in these populations....
In this, we are talking students.. ages 13-18. These stats go directly against what is being sold. "We are legalizing for Adults" is not an argument. Making them more available does indeed encourage experimentation.
Again, Portugal as a guide...
quote:
"With regard to the ages of initiation of use, and focusing on the younger age group (15-24 years) where the probality of initiation use is higher, cannabis presents the earliest values, with an average age of 17 years and modal age 16 years, followed by ecstasy and hallucinogenic mushrooms with modal ages of 17 years and amphetamines with modal age of 18 years. Cocaine, heroin and LSD present later average and modal ages of initiation of use. In the age group 15-24, there is a slight delay of the ages of initiation of use for most substances."
That is another issue. Why didn't the advocates of legalizing drugs include those younger than 15. It matters.
============================================================
Recap of facts
- They do lock people up for drugs. Therefore, they still have expenses for that.
- They created a 100% paid for by the federal Gov welfare system in the form of treatment.
- Cartels are making even more money
- Drugs are still making it's way there
- There is gang violence
I have not seen one argument presented here, or anywhere, that suggests legalization will help anything other than the satisfaction for those who want to use drugs and have the rest of America pay for their treatment.
Worded differently, people who are for smaller gov are ok with maintaining the prison system (because based on Portugal they still have it) and adding a huge gov system to handle mandated rehab attendance for the sole purpose of being allowed to use what ever drug they choose.
===========================================================
Part 2 below.
UPDATE: Please read the rebuttals before commenting, else you are rehashing the same things. some are in page 6
This post was edited on 4/20/17 at 9:35 pm
21
Posted on 4/20/17 at 12:47 pm to MButterfly
quote:
More people died in 2015 than all of the 12 years in Vietnam overdosing from drugs.
And hundreds of them were from marijuana overdose right?
Posted on 4/20/17 at 12:49 pm to MButterfly
Praying you get plowed by a drunk driver...
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:14 pm to MButterfly
Handling the Demand side
1- Start with the younger generations.
If you can't win there, you will not win in the end. Younger people generally have a mentality that nothing can hurt them. They WILL live to be old. Certain drugs will not kill them, but as proven and even stated by Portugal, Cannabis is no longer what it was. It does effect them in a much different and lasting way (and we are learning more as time and money is spent on research).
- Break up the large sinking schools.
This allows for a better education and promotes better accountability by not having large gaps in "policing areas"
In our inner cities, and it's spreading, it's a huge issue. Break them up. Make them smaller and more effective to allow them to prosper.
- Put more money and effort into education and prevention.
We could test all students for drug use, and treat accordingly if you wanted to move to the extremes. Is it worth it?
We have seen some examples of awareness working in schools. The results will take a decade or longer. We have put a lot of effort into saying Cannabis is not dangerous, and some studies show that they are listening and believe it.
- We need more private sector involvement in local communities.
It's great to build a park. It's great to go out and for a day do some cleaning up. But what you are doing is washing the outside... You are not handling the inside issues.
We need business coming in and creating things like apprenticeships, programs that get kids involved in productive community activities.
Gov is not going to do it. We all know they are not who needs to be handling it.
2- Adults and accountability
In noway should we advocate they are victims. Had they not given into drugs, they would not be addicts. What do you do with them?
You simply are not given many options with them. They are accountable for their own action or they are not. Either we pay for them or we don't
We have promoted a welfare system that in turn leads to drug use. I think that's pretty clear.
What is also evident is that nothing short of eliminating the PC mindset, we will not fix the situation in the next 70 years. Just with this topic, we are talking about adding more to the welfare program.
- Ignore PC and mandate jobs for those who get welfare.
Everybody can do something. Clean, repaint the town.... something outside of being reduced to no purpose.
If you get welfare, you get drug tested at random.
3- What about locking people up
Again, we have an issue. You can stop arresting people for drug possession, and save those dollars. In the end, you get Portugal. They had already followed that. The complaint was that they stayed in the streets with no place to go.
So they created a huge welfare program to treat people and still end up placing people in jail. It's not a solution in and of itself.
- I agree they should not be locked up murders etc. However, they should be removed from the situation that put them there. Mandatory treatment should be given. I also think that they should be placed in work environments. Not chain gangs, but actual work environments where they are paid and part of the money used for their treatment.
- You may not criminalize a casual user to the degree of prison, but in noway can you create a welfare program that forces the US to pay for their choices. They should be made to pay for their own treatment
===========================================================
There is no model in and of itself that will work. It's why you have to address the demand side, and the supply side at the same time.
1- Start with the younger generations.
If you can't win there, you will not win in the end. Younger people generally have a mentality that nothing can hurt them. They WILL live to be old. Certain drugs will not kill them, but as proven and even stated by Portugal, Cannabis is no longer what it was. It does effect them in a much different and lasting way (and we are learning more as time and money is spent on research).
- Break up the large sinking schools.
This allows for a better education and promotes better accountability by not having large gaps in "policing areas"
In our inner cities, and it's spreading, it's a huge issue. Break them up. Make them smaller and more effective to allow them to prosper.
- Put more money and effort into education and prevention.
We could test all students for drug use, and treat accordingly if you wanted to move to the extremes. Is it worth it?
We have seen some examples of awareness working in schools. The results will take a decade or longer. We have put a lot of effort into saying Cannabis is not dangerous, and some studies show that they are listening and believe it.
- We need more private sector involvement in local communities.
It's great to build a park. It's great to go out and for a day do some cleaning up. But what you are doing is washing the outside... You are not handling the inside issues.
We need business coming in and creating things like apprenticeships, programs that get kids involved in productive community activities.
Gov is not going to do it. We all know they are not who needs to be handling it.
2- Adults and accountability
In noway should we advocate they are victims. Had they not given into drugs, they would not be addicts. What do you do with them?
You simply are not given many options with them. They are accountable for their own action or they are not. Either we pay for them or we don't
We have promoted a welfare system that in turn leads to drug use. I think that's pretty clear.
What is also evident is that nothing short of eliminating the PC mindset, we will not fix the situation in the next 70 years. Just with this topic, we are talking about adding more to the welfare program.
- Ignore PC and mandate jobs for those who get welfare.
Everybody can do something. Clean, repaint the town.... something outside of being reduced to no purpose.
If you get welfare, you get drug tested at random.
3- What about locking people up
Again, we have an issue. You can stop arresting people for drug possession, and save those dollars. In the end, you get Portugal. They had already followed that. The complaint was that they stayed in the streets with no place to go.
So they created a huge welfare program to treat people and still end up placing people in jail. It's not a solution in and of itself.
- I agree they should not be locked up murders etc. However, they should be removed from the situation that put them there. Mandatory treatment should be given. I also think that they should be placed in work environments. Not chain gangs, but actual work environments where they are paid and part of the money used for their treatment.
- You may not criminalize a casual user to the degree of prison, but in noway can you create a welfare program that forces the US to pay for their choices. They should be made to pay for their own treatment
===========================================================
There is no model in and of itself that will work. It's why you have to address the demand side, and the supply side at the same time.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:17 pm to MButterfly
Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens
Much less overdoses
Thats a plus and if you want to check other countries start with Amsterdam.
Where you went wrong is that Portugal decriminalized drugs, meaning they can repeal criminal penalties against simple possession, but retain them vs trafficking and selling.
If you believe that 100% legalization would result in every man, woman, and child living a comatose lifestyle, I have a bridge to sell you.
The only thing stopping you from shooting up heroin is the laws? People that dont use heroin arent going to become addicts just because its legal.
You bring up children. This a fricking joke. Cigarettes and alcohol are illegal to minors, how many teens are puffing the cancer stick and drinking on prom night? Teens are notorious for experimenting with drugs. I would say at least 75% (minimum) of teens have tried at least one illegal substance. Peer pressure for sex and drugs is the norm.
Legalize it. There is no more taboo associated with drugs and before you know it, soon nobody gives a shite. But the billions in taxes have to be put to good use. You cant keep the ghettos and expect those places to change.
Crime is the number one thing associated with drug use. When the poor and uneducated get hooked and dont have the funds to get their fix, they resort to burglary, murder etc to get their fix. That changes with legalization.
I havent touched drugs in a decade due to work. Legalizing drugs wont have me shooting up and becoming addicted to crack, I can assure you.
Your mentality on this issue is backwards. I highly suggest you get yourself a dime bag and take a rip off a bong. Your stance will change on marijuana in a heart beat.
Much less overdoses
Thats a plus and if you want to check other countries start with Amsterdam.
Where you went wrong is that Portugal decriminalized drugs, meaning they can repeal criminal penalties against simple possession, but retain them vs trafficking and selling.
If you believe that 100% legalization would result in every man, woman, and child living a comatose lifestyle, I have a bridge to sell you.
The only thing stopping you from shooting up heroin is the laws? People that dont use heroin arent going to become addicts just because its legal.
You bring up children. This a fricking joke. Cigarettes and alcohol are illegal to minors, how many teens are puffing the cancer stick and drinking on prom night? Teens are notorious for experimenting with drugs. I would say at least 75% (minimum) of teens have tried at least one illegal substance. Peer pressure for sex and drugs is the norm.
Legalize it. There is no more taboo associated with drugs and before you know it, soon nobody gives a shite. But the billions in taxes have to be put to good use. You cant keep the ghettos and expect those places to change.
Crime is the number one thing associated with drug use. When the poor and uneducated get hooked and dont have the funds to get their fix, they resort to burglary, murder etc to get their fix. That changes with legalization.
I havent touched drugs in a decade due to work. Legalizing drugs wont have me shooting up and becoming addicted to crack, I can assure you.
Your mentality on this issue is backwards. I highly suggest you get yourself a dime bag and take a rip off a bong. Your stance will change on marijuana in a heart beat.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:18 pm to MButterfly
Why do you hate freedom?
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:19 pm to MButterfly
quote:Why are we using Portugal as an example? Do you understand that legalization and decriminalization are not interchangeable?
So let's explore legalizing Drugs... ALL of them.
===========================================================
Portugal is used over and over as an example for success. So let's REALLY look at Portugal.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:23 pm to MButterfly
quote:
I have not seen one argument presented here, or anywhere, that suggests legalization will help anything other than the satisfaction for those who want to use drugs and have the rest of America pay for their treatment.
Sure you have. You just didn't like it and chose to ignore it.
quote:
Worded differently, people who are for smaller gov are ok with maintaining the prison system (because based on Portugal they still have it) and adding a huge gov system to handle mandated rehab attendance for the sole purpose of being allowed to use what ever drug they choose.
And your solution is to increase govt spending x10 to try to eradicate something that people will do regardless of the law.
Clown show Day 2 begins.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:25 pm to Tuscaloosa
quote:Why do you knee jerk reaction?
Why do you hate freedom?
He didn't state anything other than lay out facts as have been recorded as data in a country that has done what many here are seeking to have done here. I found the numbers strikingly different than I expected.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:58 pm to MButterfly
You don't need laws criminalizing activity you don't orherwise want to do. Making a good illegal does never eliminates the demand, only moves it. If there is no comparable legal alternative, a black market alternative will be found and destributed.
Heroin use is a biproduct of a prescription drug use. People with legitimate needs are proscribed opioids which are deemed safe, but are actually highly addictive. When it runs out, they turn to the black market to get their fix.
We proscribe what is essentially meth to children to combat ADD and ADHD. Those kids then share these "safe" highly-addictive drugs to use recreationally. This creates a black market demand. When they can't get their prescriptions filled, the black market supplies them with pills or meth, which is even more dangerous.
We prescribe drugs to people with depression and anxiety that all have black market versions as well for when the scripts run out.
By using our isiotic DARE rhetoric, we convince children that all illegal drugs are equally harmful and all legal drugs are harmless when used as directed. So when a child tries weed (which is as harmless as legal alcohol) and realizes it's nothing to be afraid of, suddenly all the other drugs seem safe too, when many (legal and illicit) are not.
We create a welfare state that is meant to provide a social safety net, but actually traps people in dependancy. They have to rely on the entitlements because if they try to make too much money legally, the government siezes
their bank accounts and cuts them off, kicking them out of their homes to boot. This creates a huge underclass that can't really work real jobs, but needs more disposable income. These are the foot soldiers of the black market. They need a source of income, and the government has made illicit activies the only manageable source. However, getting involved in a criminalized black market gets one in jail, and when they get out, they're basically unhireable, and have no economic choice but to go back to the black market for employment. It's a vicious government-imposed cycle.
Heroin use is a biproduct of a prescription drug use. People with legitimate needs are proscribed opioids which are deemed safe, but are actually highly addictive. When it runs out, they turn to the black market to get their fix.
We proscribe what is essentially meth to children to combat ADD and ADHD. Those kids then share these "safe" highly-addictive drugs to use recreationally. This creates a black market demand. When they can't get their prescriptions filled, the black market supplies them with pills or meth, which is even more dangerous.
We prescribe drugs to people with depression and anxiety that all have black market versions as well for when the scripts run out.
By using our isiotic DARE rhetoric, we convince children that all illegal drugs are equally harmful and all legal drugs are harmless when used as directed. So when a child tries weed (which is as harmless as legal alcohol) and realizes it's nothing to be afraid of, suddenly all the other drugs seem safe too, when many (legal and illicit) are not.
We create a welfare state that is meant to provide a social safety net, but actually traps people in dependancy. They have to rely on the entitlements because if they try to make too much money legally, the government siezes
their bank accounts and cuts them off, kicking them out of their homes to boot. This creates a huge underclass that can't really work real jobs, but needs more disposable income. These are the foot soldiers of the black market. They need a source of income, and the government has made illicit activies the only manageable source. However, getting involved in a criminalized black market gets one in jail, and when they get out, they're basically unhireable, and have no economic choice but to go back to the black market for employment. It's a vicious government-imposed cycle.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 1:59 pm to MButterfly
Count me as part of the "demand" for weed!
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:03 pm to MButterfly
Realities of Portugal
Drug use did not rise in Portugal after decriminalization. This is an outright lie. What rose was "lifetime prevalence" meaning whether a person used an illicit drug at any point in their life. That number has risen across the world as older generations who had little no exposure illicit drugs in their youth die off and are replaced by younger adults who grew up in a civilizations awash with illicit drugs.
However, there are two other categories that Portugal used to measure drug use following decriminalization - use in the past year and use in the past month.
For those meterics, there has been a decrease since decriminalization both falling below usage rates in 2001.
Portugal didn't legalize drugs. They decriminalized possession in small quantities. The aim of the legislation was never to reduce trafficking. However,
LINK
Wrong again. Repeating the above link:
Of course it is. THEY DID NOT LEGALIZE THE SALE AND DISTRIBUTION OF DRUGS.
Other factors not mentioned in your post:
5. Direct Drug Deaths bottomed out
You began this entire discussion focusing on the increased in drug related deaths in the U.S. So it makes sense to compare that statistic directly with Portugal:
Drug induced deaths fell 77% in Portugal in the ten years following decriminalization.
6. HIV/AIDS rates have plummeted
One major indirect form of fatality in drug use is the prevalence of HIV/AIDS among users. In addition to fatalities, these diseases are enormous financial burdens on the victim and the health community.
Exponential drops in both.
quote:
1- Drug use went up. Among school students
there was an increase in every drug
category with cannabis skyrocketing
the charts with its 150% raise
Drug use did not rise in Portugal after decriminalization. This is an outright lie. What rose was "lifetime prevalence" meaning whether a person used an illicit drug at any point in their life. That number has risen across the world as older generations who had little no exposure illicit drugs in their youth die off and are replaced by younger adults who grew up in a civilizations awash with illicit drugs.
However, there are two other categories that Portugal used to measure drug use following decriminalization - use in the past year and use in the past month.
For those meterics, there has been a decrease since decriminalization both falling below usage rates in 2001.
quote:
2- Drug Trafficking went UP.
Portugal didn't legalize drugs. They decriminalized possession in small quantities. The aim of the legislation was never to reduce trafficking. However,
LINK
quote:
Crime
Despite claims to the contrary,34 decriminalisation appears to have had a positive effect on crime. With its recategorisation of low-level drug possession as an administrative rather than criminal offence, decriminalisation inevitably produced a reduction in the number of people arrested and sent to criminal court for drug offences – from over 14,000 in the year 2000, to around 5,500-6,000 per year once the policy had come into effect.35 The proportion of drug-related offenders (defined as those who committed offences under the influence of drugs and/or to fund drug consumption) in the Portuguese prison population also declined, from 44% in 1999, to just under 21% in 2012.36
Additionally, decriminalisation does not appear to have caused an increase in crimes typically associated with drugs. While opportunistic thefts and robberies had gone up when measured in 2004, it has been suggested that this may have been because police were able to use the time saved by no longer arresting drug users to tackle (and record) other low-level crimes.37 Although difficult to test, this theory is perhaps supported by the fact that, during the same period, there was a reduction in recorded cases of other, more complex crimes typically committed by people who are dependent on drugs, such as thefts from homes and businesses.
quote:
3- They stopped locking people up and it worked? No. They were never to the point of locking up people on the demand side.
Wrong again. Repeating the above link:
quote:
Despite claims to the contrary,34 decriminalisation appears to have had a positive effect on crime. With its recategorisation of low-level drug possession as an administrative rather than criminal offence, decriminalisation inevitably produced a reduction in the number of people arrested and sent to criminal court for drug offences – from over 14,000 in the year 2000, to around 5,500-6,000 per year once the policy had come into effect.35 The proportion of drug-related offenders (defined as those who committed offences under the influence of drugs and/or to fund drug consumption) in the Portuguese prison population also declined, from 44% in 1999, to just under 21% in 2012.36
quote:
4- Black market is 100% still there.
Of course it is. THEY DID NOT LEGALIZE THE SALE AND DISTRIBUTION OF DRUGS.
Other factors not mentioned in your post:
5. Direct Drug Deaths bottomed out
You began this entire discussion focusing on the increased in drug related deaths in the U.S. So it makes sense to compare that statistic directly with Portugal:
Drug induced deaths fell 77% in Portugal in the ten years following decriminalization.
6. HIV/AIDS rates have plummeted
One major indirect form of fatality in drug use is the prevalence of HIV/AIDS among users. In addition to fatalities, these diseases are enormous financial burdens on the victim and the health community.
Exponential drops in both.
This post was edited on 4/20/17 at 2:06 pm
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:04 pm to MButterfly
Somehow worse than your last thread. Epic levels of retarded.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:06 pm to MrCarton
You guys are wasting your time. This idiot swears hundreds of people die every year from marijuana overdose.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:08 pm to saintsfan1977
quote:
Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens
They were not having that issue prior to them decriminalizing it.
This is a pro legalizing article
quote:
This appears to have had a beneficial effect as drug-related deaths have decreased from around 80 in 2001 to 16 in 2012
Your article now shows an increase. It's a 50% increase.
quote:
Where you went wrong is that Portugal decriminalized drugs, meaning they can repeal criminal penalties against simple possession, but retain them vs trafficking and selling.
I didn't go wrong. The link is provided.
quote:
If you believe that 100% legalization would result in every man, woman, and child living a comatose lifestyle, I have a bridge to sell you.
I don't see where I stated that.
quote:
The only thing stopping you from shooting up heroin is the laws? People that dont use heroin arent going to become addicts just because its legal.
Well, we can only look at facts. I provided links.
quote:
Legalize it. There is no more taboo associated with drugs and before you know it, soon nobody gives a shite. But the billions in taxes have to be put to good use. You cant keep the ghettos and expect those places to change.
Zero proof of success in what you are suggesting be done
quote:
Crime is the number one thing associated with drug use. When the poor and uneducated get hooked and dont have the funds to get their fix, they resort to burglary, murder etc to get their fix. That changes with legalization.
Again no proof of that.
And you just contradicted yourself. Poor people can not afford street prices, but you are going to regulate and tax the drugs?
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:08 pm to mouton
quote:
You guys are wasting your time. This idiot swears hundreds of people die every year from marijuana overdose.
It took me like 2 seconds to write that. I'm not engaging this fool.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:10 pm to mouton
quote:
You guys are wasting your time. This idiot swears hundreds of people die every year from marijuana overdose
Not to mention that Jesus himself said crack is whack.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:11 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
upgrayedd
And again you can't address the content. As usual, you move the goal post.
"Portugal".. So we look at them.. now... It's silience
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:11 pm to MButterfly
quote:
Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens
quote:
They were not having that issue prior to them decriminalizing it.
Posted on 4/20/17 at 2:13 pm to MButterfly
quote:I haven't found anything to support your claims, so if you are going to make arguments, please cite your work.
Drug use went up. Among school students there was an increase in every drug category with cannabis skyrocketing
the charts with its 150% raise
I did found this interesting though:
Apparently despite such lax laws, the prevalence is not high compared to nations with stricter laws.
quote:Well this is disingenuous.
4- Black market is 100% still there.
If only one person unlawfully sells a single unit of a drug, then that would meet the definition of a black market sale, so the black market is 100% still there just by that alone. And as AntonioMoss pointed out, they essentially DECRIMINALIZED drugs for your everyday user, they didn't make it a LEGALIZED industry, especially across the board.
So presenting at 100% black market, seems like you're arguing the black market is still at the same operating capacity. Maybe you didn't mean to imply, but it sure comes off as dishonest.
This post was edited on 4/20/17 at 2:16 pm
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