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Started By
Message
Unions, why do you dislike them?
Posted on 7/27/18 at 11:57 am
Posted on 7/27/18 at 11:57 am
Open discussion. I am honestly asking.
If you know anything about the origins of Unions, you will realize they were established to grant workers rights.
I understand that with certain laws in place, unions need to be less restrictive. But I have some concern
Section 1
What about companies that abuse their hours with regards to time. Paying them 40 hrs/week salary when they work far more than that. You can make the negotiating argument : well you agreed to take the job. But that only highlights that private companies will compensate the least possible (well below market value) if they can.
Section 2
As for pay rates, will they be better or worse if unions die out. A thread made earlier discussed how increase in productivity does not increase wages.
There were good responses as to why (technology, better standard of living at lower SES, etc). But then leads to another question: if increasing productivity does not initiate wage increase, why bother putting more effort in.
Example
Take teachers unions. They are bad because they protect the worse teachers while paying more valuable teachers less than their market value. But if we got rid of all teacher unions today, would the free market allow a math teacher to earn 55k + and an art teacher only 20k. Or would public schools create an artificial ceiling to keep salaries low, thus making abolishing unions pointless?
If you know anything about the origins of Unions, you will realize they were established to grant workers rights.
I understand that with certain laws in place, unions need to be less restrictive. But I have some concern
Section 1
What about companies that abuse their hours with regards to time. Paying them 40 hrs/week salary when they work far more than that. You can make the negotiating argument : well you agreed to take the job. But that only highlights that private companies will compensate the least possible (well below market value) if they can.
Section 2
As for pay rates, will they be better or worse if unions die out. A thread made earlier discussed how increase in productivity does not increase wages.
There were good responses as to why (technology, better standard of living at lower SES, etc). But then leads to another question: if increasing productivity does not initiate wage increase, why bother putting more effort in.
Example
Take teachers unions. They are bad because they protect the worse teachers while paying more valuable teachers less than their market value. But if we got rid of all teacher unions today, would the free market allow a math teacher to earn 55k + and an art teacher only 20k. Or would public schools create an artificial ceiling to keep salaries low, thus making abolishing unions pointless?
This post was edited on 7/27/18 at 12:00 pm
40
Posted on 7/27/18 at 11:58 am to volod
Because they’re nothing more than leftist government lobbyists.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:00 pm to volod
quote:
But if we got rid of all teacher unions today, would the free market allow a math teacher to earn 55k + and an art teacher only 20k.
Well, one has actual value, the other is merely a glorified hobby.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:01 pm to volod
Unions are a part of past that was useful , but their time is over. All they are now is a way for a few greedy folks to make money off hard workers while providing little if any benefit to society.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:01 pm to volod
quote:
I am honestly asking.
Somehow I doubt this...
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:02 pm to volod
There are way more labor laws (and a bureaucracy to enforce them) than there was once upon a time.
Unnecessary and they are more corrupt that helpful.
Unnecessary and they are more corrupt that helpful.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:02 pm to volod
quote:
But if we got rid of all teacher unions today, would the free market allow a math teacher to earn 55k + and an art teacher only 20k.
GAWD...I certainly HOPE so
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:04 pm to volod
I don't like the idea that jobs belong or are owed to employees. Unions operate with that assumption.
I don't dislike the concept of unionization in the private sector. Employees can try to bargain collectively if they want and employers should be able to fire employees "collectively". I'm against public unions.
I don't dislike the concept of unionization in the private sector. Employees can try to bargain collectively if they want and employers should be able to fire employees "collectively". I'm against public unions.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:05 pm to volod
Unions used to be a necessary evil. Workers were being abused and mistreated post Civil War and well into the 20th Century.
Problem is that Unions are socialst by nature and they use their power more for political gain than helping workers these days.
Matter of fact they probably hurt workers and American manufacturing and transportation more than they help these days.
They take mandatory dues from workers and use the money to enrich their heirarchy, entrench their pension plans in criminal activities and to support socialist causes and politicians.
Problem is that Unions are socialst by nature and they use their power more for political gain than helping workers these days.
Matter of fact they probably hurt workers and American manufacturing and transportation more than they help these days.
They take mandatory dues from workers and use the money to enrich their heirarchy, entrench their pension plans in criminal activities and to support socialist causes and politicians.
This post was edited on 7/27/18 at 12:33 pm
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:05 pm to volod
Unions, while initially very beneficial for workers, morphed into a mafia and democrat money grab.
Unions also lead to mediocrity in the work place because merit was never recognized only seniority. Unions wages artificially increased the cost of goods just as illegal aliens have artificially lowered the cost of good and services.
Government employee unions are a joke. There are enough laws on the books to protect employees without the need for unions.
Unions also lead to mediocrity in the work place because merit was never recognized only seniority. Unions wages artificially increased the cost of goods just as illegal aliens have artificially lowered the cost of good and services.
Government employee unions are a joke. There are enough laws on the books to protect employees without the need for unions.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:06 pm to volod
quote:
If you know anything about the origins of Unions, you will realize they were established to grant workers rights.
They did. Now they've only exist to donate money to the DNC.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:07 pm to volod
Their wages do not equal their productivity. I worked out with a guy from the GM plant back in the 80s.
He was telling me about his new house. I asked him how much he made.
Him: '70K a year.'
Me: 'What's your job?'
Him: 'I'm in quality control.'
Me: "What do you do?"
Him: 'When a truck comes off the line I check to make sure the removable ash tray is in place and the floor mats are down."
The plant closed and the union workers all lost their jobs.
He was telling me about his new house. I asked him how much he made.
Him: '70K a year.'
Me: 'What's your job?'
Him: 'I'm in quality control.'
Me: "What do you do?"
Him: 'When a truck comes off the line I check to make sure the removable ash tray is in place and the floor mats are down."
The plant closed and the union workers all lost their jobs.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:13 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
Well, one has actual value, the other is merely a glorified hobby.
I agree. The argument was that a free market should replace a union. But if you stifle the market by making artificial ceiling (intentionally pay people lower) it's no better than a union.
Sorry for the confusion?
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:14 pm to volod
The “union thugs” moniker is literal. They will gang jump any member threatening their racket. Some stand outside with banners saying “shame on x” business for not using their overpriced union labor. Yes, shame on pastor so-and-so of the local Baptist Church for trying to save a few bucks. Most are extortionist.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:15 pm to volod
quote:
Section 1 What about companies that abuse their hours with regards to time. Paying them 40 hrs/week salary when they work far more than that. You can make the negotiating argument : well you agreed to take the job. But that only highlights that private companies will compensate the least possible (well below market value) if they can.
There is a labor board, EEOC and countless other government agencies to protect workers from bad employers.
quote:
Example Take teachers unions. They are bad because they protect the worse teachers while paying more valuable teachers less than their market value. But if we got rid of all teacher unions today, would the free market allow a math teacher to earn 55k + and an art teacher only 20k. Or would public schools create an artificial ceiling to keep salaries low, thus making abolishing unions pointless?
I don't even understand why there is a teachers union. Don't they already work for the city/county/state thus making them almost unfierable anyway? I suppose the teachers union is like gap insurance for the really shitty teachers.
Unions had their purpose and time and today isn't that time. If things were supposed to last forever I guess we should all go open wagon wheel stores and see how long we stay open.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:15 pm to volod
Freedom of association. Period.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:15 pm to volod
quote:
Unions, why do you dislike them?
1-I’m not a cog in the wheel, I’m a distinct human being.
2-I’m a big boy, and can take care of myself.
3-My employer is not my enemy. We are partners in prosperity.
4-My employer risks more and makes more. That’s ok, and I do not covet my neighbor’s goods.
5-One size doesn’t fit all.
6-I believe in merit.
7-I should not be forced to pay money for anything I disagree with.
8-I can leave anytime I want. If I cannot then I’m already overpaid.
9-Why should I be paid the same as everyone else, or less than another who’s done worse longer?
10-Unions are monopolistic parasites.
Want more?
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:16 pm to volod
quote:
But if you stifle the market by making artificial ceiling (intentionally pay people lower)
That is not how free markets work AT ALL
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:18 pm to volod
Unions operate as monopolies which have no investment in company success.
I'd be pro-union if the following happened:
- Unions followed a German model, with a seat on the board and vested interest in company success.
- Unions broken up and forced to compete for the labor contracts of companies.
I'd be pro-union if the following happened:
- Unions followed a German model, with a seat on the board and vested interest in company success.
- Unions broken up and forced to compete for the labor contracts of companies.
Posted on 7/27/18 at 12:18 pm to volod
Well in most free market societies you get paid via your merit. I’d rather the teachers that teach something that add value to society to get paid more, I don’t think that public schools would create a cap, I think most are smart enough to know about what a teacher is worth.
I’m not completely bashing art, I think it’s valuable, beauty in things is very valuable, but I don’t think art teachers should get paid the same as a physics or trigonometry teacher.
I’m not completely bashing art, I think it’s valuable, beauty in things is very valuable, but I don’t think art teachers should get paid the same as a physics or trigonometry teacher.
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