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Started By
Message
re: The Man Who Knows Too Much...Snowden Related
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:15 pm to Navytiger74
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:15 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
I'm sure that was it. Freedom fighter that he is.
He is....he released the information to protect the citizens of the United States from our own, overbearing, illegally acting government.
Sounds like a great fighter for freedom.
0
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:17 pm to Navytiger74
quote:The question was asked because every rational person knows the program was fricking gross over reach that few Americans would support. And, he lied because typical of such liars, he has no interest in what the American people would support, only what he can get away with.
I agree he should have avoided directly perjuring himself, but that's as good as a yes. He had a responsibility to protect classified programs.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:23 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
The question was asked because every rational person knows the program was fricking gross over reach that few Americans would support. And, he lied because typical of such liars, he has no interest in what the American people would support, only what he can get away with.
There is such a thing as a classified hearing or briefing.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:26 pm to Navytiger74
quote:Circular.
There is such a thing as a classified hearing or briefing.
If those assholes don't want shite that should NOT be outed outed, then those assholes should get their bull shite over reach under control.
A closed hearing just means that the assholes can keep doing their shite because the Americans can't find out about it and the President supports it.
Congressional oversight is useless if they can't do anything about it and, AS REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE, they can't make us aware we're being fricked.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:26 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Snowden cited Clapper's lie as catalyst for release.
That's such a BS excuse.
He was already stealing documents almost a year before that and was already contacting Greenwald and Poitras months before that hearing.
So much BS but that's typical for Edward Snowden.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:28 pm to Decatur
quote:
So much BS but that's typical for Edward Snowden.
Decatur, same question I asked 74 - what is your opinion of Ellsberg?
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:28 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
A closed hearing just means that the assholes can keep doing their shite because the Americans can't find out about it and the President supports it.
That's how the handling of classified info works in our representative democracy
But maybe you think you deserve to be briefed on it all
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:29 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
If those assholes don't want shite that should NOT be outed outed, then those assholes should get their bull shite over reach under control.
You seem upset.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:30 pm to Decatur
I have two relatives that work behind the shadows in the intelligence community. they, of course, cannot give specifics on Snowden and how he has harmed the intelligence world.
However, both said that what he did apparently turned off overseas sources that have been courted, worked and used overnight - never to be used again.
Both also acknowledge that there is justifiable outrage over domestic spying, and criticism is fair, but that Snowden could have gone about this in a different way (I assume just stealing and releasing domestic information).
However, both said that what he did apparently turned off overseas sources that have been courted, worked and used overnight - never to be used again.
Both also acknowledge that there is justifiable outrage over domestic spying, and criticism is fair, but that Snowden could have gone about this in a different way (I assume just stealing and releasing domestic information).
This post was edited on 6/20/14 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:30 pm to Decatur
quote:When the mechanism for stopping over reach is broken, it needs to be unbroken.
That's how the handling of classified info works in our representative democracy
quote:I think that if my duly elected representatives become aware of OBVIOUS and egregious over reach that it is their DUTY to blow the fricking whistle. But, since none of them were willing to risk it, I'm glad someone finally blew it.
But maybe you think you deserve to be briefed on it all
If the NSA doesn't like it, they should maybe think about their bull shite next time.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:31 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
A closed hearing just means that the assholes can keep doing their shite because the Americans can't find out about it and the President supports it.
Congressional oversight is useless if they can't do anything about it and, AS REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE, they can't make us aware we're being fricked.
Would you argue, then, that state secrets are incompatible with the popular sovereignty and free societies?
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:33 pm to DeltaDoc
quote:
that Snowden could have gone about this in a different way
He tried, several times.
Nobody cared because the fedgov is OOC.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:34 pm to DeltaDoc
quote:This is almost certainly true.
Both also acknowledge that there is justifiable outrage over domestic spying, and criticism is fair, but that Snowden could have gone about this in a different way (I assume just stealing and releasing domestic information).
Hence, the NSA should be ashamed of themselves for CAUSING Snowden.
From a cause effect standpoint, this is not unlike a corporation behaving badly and one of their employees blowing the whistle but in the process, disclosing shite that damages the company financially(beyond the BS they were doing). The proximate cause of that damage is the corporate malfeasance, not the employee.
And leader worth a shite knows that it damned well IS possible to create an environment where your subordinates do something bad that YOU caused.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:37 pm to Navytiger74
quote:I'm fine with state secrets. I also recognize that having them is a recipe for letting agencies go rogue and as such, those agencies have a VERY LARGE responsibility for NOT going rogue.
Would you argue, then, that state secrets are incompatible with the popular sovereignty and free societies?
When they do, it creates an environment that necessitates their shite be outed. The NSA has clearly forgotten what kind of nation they operate in. What may have been tolerable as a state secret in the USSR is not nearly so acceptable here.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:39 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
that state secrets are incompatible with the popular sovereignty and free societies?
Taking at stab at this one Shorty? I didn't like your corp = govt analogy.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:41 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
I also recognize that having them is a recipe for letting agencies go rogue and as such, those agencies have a VERY LARGE responsibility for NOT going rogue.
Which is why they have oversight. Congress has oversight over the 16 agencies within the IC. But they're supposed to exercise it responsibly--not ask sensitive questions in open forums just to get their mugs on TV.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:42 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:Well, you're bad at analogies because it wasn't a corp = govt analogy. It was merely an observation when a responsible agency(govt or otherwise) goes rogue and causes a whistleblower, you really can't be surprised if the whistleblower blows the lid off shite you may think should've stayed private.
Taking at stab at this one Shorty? I didn't like your corp = govt analogy.
The CAUSE of that isn't the whistleblower. It's the assholes who went out of control.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:43 pm to DeltaDoc
quote:
the most damaging Snowden revelations are still to come
Greenwald has claimed there is more damning stuff for months and months yet none of it has come out. He was acting as if its some huge revelation and it is Snowden's life line, because he will not release it as long as the US doesn't go after his life
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:46 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
what is your opinion of Ellsberg?
Regarding his leaks?
He leaked a classified history of the Vietnam War.
Snowden is leaking SIGINT sources and methods for our military and intelligence agencies, some of the most highly classified information we keep.
I think one easily see the two are not comparable at all, unless one is trying to play some kind of gotcha game.
I personally don't have a high opinion of Ellsburg at all based upon some of things I've heard him say.
Posted on 6/20/14 at 1:48 pm to Navytiger74
quote:Oversight is great unless the executive is perfectly OK with the behavior.
Which is why they have oversight.
The NSA figured out how to side step oversight in any meaningful way. This isn't surprising really because if a crook knows you can't disclose him being a crook, you're basically completely reliant upon him just being nice and not doing crook shite.
It's one of those natural conflicts. We recognize the need for state secrets but the reality is, there is no such thing as "oversight" of said secrets if the secret agency decides "frick it, we dare them to try and stop it".
The ONLY way that shite was going to stop was if the PEOPLE figured out they were being fricked. As long as that shite could be kept in the beltway, it was a free for all.
The simple fact that Obama actually is revisiting some of the stuff and at least SAYING he's going to scale it back tells you that it was not something OUR nation should tolerate.
Let's be real here. Mechanically speaking, the people at the NSA would happily perform a the rough equals of the KGB. Their job is merely to find shite out. That's job #1 and they don't really care HOW they do it.
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