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Started By
Message
re: Sessions Rescinds Obama Order on Private Prisons
Posted on 2/24/17 at 6:42 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 2/24/17 at 6:42 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
I'm 5'9 and weigh 127 pounds.
Jesus man go eat a hamburger or two.
That's woman size.
0
Posted on 2/24/17 at 8:40 am to WheelRoute
It's pretty easy to spot the guys with ties to law enforcement agencies in this thread.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:21 am to ShortyRob
quote:To some degree; however, the financial incentives, which is arguably the strongest tangible incentive in society, is far greater in a for-profit business and industry.
The problem here is that it ignores the obvious reality that those same "incentives" exist with public prisons.
There are very few instances where I would have a problem with that, but this is one of those rare exceptions. Prisons may be those next example of a necessary evil in our society; they inherently deprive indivduals of their most basic rights and freedoms.
Therefore, prisons should be a last resort, not a profitable enterprise.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:26 am to Korkstand
quote:
he was right. It's 'effect change'.
Affect is a verb. Effect is a noun.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:27 am to WheelRoute
quote:
Sessions Rescinds Obama Order on Private Prisons
Good. That's fewer government employees that we don't have to pay for and their retirement plans.
BTW, can a private enterprise in contract with the government be sued by the government for breach of contract? I'd certainly hope so. Therefore, since the government never fires anyone for incompetence, I'd sure as hell think that private business would. I see that as a good thing.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:29 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:Yes, but when it means 'to bring about', it's correct to use effect.
Affect is a verb. Effect is a noun.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:30 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Affect is a verb. Effect is a noun.
Affect is a noun and a verb.
Effect is a noun and a verb. He used the correct verb (effect) in his original post.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:39 am to Green Chili Tiger
quote:
So, they're obviously not interested in reducing spending.
There are some valid criticisms of privately-run prisons. Direct cost efficiency is not one of them.
[link=(
https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-economics-of-the-american-prison-system)]LINK[/link]
quote:
Studies mostly agree that privatized prisons save money on the balance sheet—with short run savings averaging about 19.25% and long run savings averaging about 28.82%. In fact, many states have statutes that require a certain percentage of savings—Florida 7%, Texas 10%, Kentucky 10%, Mississippi 10% –in contracts with private corrections providers. On paper, private corrections facilities are almost always more efficient than public ones. CCA reports savings of 68-74% vs. various government agencies for 1000 new beds added.
Astonishingly, CCA was able to generate these savings while also recording a 29.6% operating margin of $17.53 per man, per day in 2012. Are private prisons really that much more efficient or are we missing something?
Let’s break this down further. In 2012 CCA received $59.14 in revenue per compensated man-day from the government. Of this $59.14, CCA committed $41.61 to operating expenses per man-day. This effectively means CCA commits $41.61 to each prisoner each day. According to CCA’s SEC filings 65% of these operating expenses, or $27.05 goes to employee salaries and benefits. This leaves $14.56 per man-day for the combined costs of food, medical care, and contracted drug rehabilitation and education programs.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:50 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
There are some valid criticisms of privately-run prisons. Direct cost efficiency is not one of them.
Yeah, it's easy to control expenses when the quality of your product has zero impact on revenue.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 9:52 am to Korkstand
quote:
it's easy to control expenses when the quality of your product has zero impact on revenue.
How would this change under public prisons? Does the quality of their product impact revenue?
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:09 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
How would this change under public prisons? Does the quality of their product impact revenue?
It changes entirely. I know public prisons aren't perfect, far from it. But it is obvious that profit motives should not be a thing in the case of prisons. There are literally zero things you can say to convince a logical person otherwise.
We have to take as a base assumption that one of the primary goals of prisons is to rehabilitate. Why would we ever release anyone otherwise, right? THAT is the motive, not profit. And long term profit directly conflicts with the primary goal.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:24 am to Korkstand
quote:
It changes entirely.
So public prisons get increased revenue based on the quality of ex-inmate released?
Because that is absolutely false. So the point you tried to make against private prisons fails in terms of persuasion because the result is the exact same for its opposition - public prisons.
quote:
But it is obvious that profit motives should not be a thing in the case of prisons.
Except that prisons don't convict people - judges and juries do. So there is no profit motive in terms of convictions. Now, if you can establish a link between prison lobbying and judicial campaigns, then you have something. Or if you can show that private prisons have the authority to extend sentences (never heard of that being the case), you may have an argument.
quote:
There are literally zero things you can say to convince a logical person otherwise.
Disagree as the two points above clearly show.
quote:
We have to take as a base assumption that one of the primary goals of prisons is to rehabilitate.
Agreed. The problem is that this issue transcends the public v. private prison argument as neither really focus on rehabilitation. So again, you've brought up a valid point but one that doesn't hold sway for either option.
This post was edited on 2/24/17 at 10:26 am
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:25 am to WheelRoute
quote:
On the same day they said they'd start aggressively enforcing federal marijuana laws, no less. What a country.
Gotta pay of his constitchency! Sessions is a libertarian nightmare. A real authoritarian piece of shite. Thanks Trump!
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:27 am to dmjones
As a Trump supporter, I don't really approve of either private prisons or the continued war on cannabis. There should not be a profit motive for locking people up, just like there shouldn't be a profit motive for the military.
As for weed, I don't smoke it (used to in my youth), but I don't see it as exceedingly dangerous. I can say that I am not a fan of kids smoking it due to potential problems later in life (read the study about mental illness and weed). I think it should be regulated the same as alcohol and for adults only. I am all for the war on opiates and hard drugs like meth. That shite destroys people. And I am for cracking down on doctors that over prescribe narcotic pain killers as well.
As for weed, I don't smoke it (used to in my youth), but I don't see it as exceedingly dangerous. I can say that I am not a fan of kids smoking it due to potential problems later in life (read the study about mental illness and weed). I think it should be regulated the same as alcohol and for adults only. I am all for the war on opiates and hard drugs like meth. That shite destroys people. And I am for cracking down on doctors that over prescribe narcotic pain killers as well.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:28 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
uote:
But it is obvious that profit motives should not be a thing in the case of prisons.
Except that prisons don't convict people - judges and juries do. So there is no profit motive in terms of convictions. Now, if you can establish a link between prison lobbying and judicial campaigns, then you have something. Or if you can show that private prisons have the authority to extend sentences (never heard of that being the case), you may have an argument.
The profit motivates them to lobby for more criminal laws, harsher sentences...and of course the "kids for cash scandal"...I don't think you get that kind of scandal with public prisons.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:28 am to WheelRoute
My reservations on a Sessions justice department are being confirmed and validated
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:40 am to cwill
quote:
The profit motivates them to lobby for more criminal laws, harsher sentences...and of course the "kids for cash scandal"...I don't think you get that kind of scandal with public prisons.
Agreed. And that is a perfectly legitimate argument. It's just not the one being made.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:44 am to Antonio Moss
quote:No, you just don't get it. Funding should be based on need.
So public prisons get increased revenue based on the quality of ex-inmate released?
quote:It's obvious my point flew right by you.
So the point you tried to make against private prisons fails in terms of persuasion because the result is the exact same for its opposition - public prisons.
quote:But there is a profit motive in terms of actual rehabilitation. Worse performance is actually job security. It's fricked up.
Except that prisons don't convict people - judges and juries do. So there is no profit motive in terms of convictions.
quote:You severely overestimate the validity of your points.
Disagree as the two points above clearly show.
quote:I'll choose the option where the motives don't directly conflict with the goal.
The problem is that this issue transcends the public v. private prison argument as neither really focus on rehabilitation. So again, you've brought up a valid point but one that doesn't hold sway for either option.
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:50 am to Korkstand
I just wanted to say that I am glad that some Trump supporters aren't completely blinded and agree with EVERYTHING this administration is doing. Gives me some hope. Ultimately, we all want good things to come from any administration. So props to you all for that 
This post was edited on 2/24/17 at 10:51 am
Posted on 2/24/17 at 10:56 am to Korkstand
quote:
No, you just don't get it.
What's not to get? Your initial argument was that private prisons were wrong because their revenue is not dependent on the end product.
I pointed out that your alternative - public prisons - share the exact same characteristic, namely that their revenue does not depend on the end result.
quote:
It's obvious my point flew right by you.
No, your point was just demonstratively irrelevant and unpersuasive.
quote:
But there is a profit motive in terms of actual rehabilitation. Worse performance is actually job security. It's fricked up.
That's fine. That just wasn't your initial argument. And, as someone who looks into this stuff, the actual data on recidivism rates between private and public prisons aren't all that clear. So we're left arguing motive minus tangible results.
quote:
I'll choose the option where the motives don't directly conflict with the goal.
The problem is there are many different "goals" in this discussion. What is the actual value of rehabilitation versus costs to society? To take it to it's extreme - should we prohibit private prisons with the consequence of several billion dollars more in public expenditures for a recidivism difference of .001%?
It's nice and cute to say we shouldn't worry about the costs of public prisons because they don't have to deal with profit motive but in actuality that at some level has to be a consideration. And what we can ascertain in terms of hard data is that private prisons do save taxpayers a lot of money in terms overall public expenditures. Now, again, it's not only variable to be studied - or even the most important - but to argue that it isn't a consideration and to hold this Utopian notion financially-neutral, acceptable rehabilitation rate is naive.
This post was edited on 2/24/17 at 10:58 am
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