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Message
1
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:53 pm to AUsteriskPride
quote:
You're full of shite. Party affiliation has nothing to do with being principled.
If you are going to win a national election (or any election really) you are going to say what your party wants you to say.
Principles go out the door so you can get elected.
EVERY SINGLE politician has lied their asses off about something to get elected. Even Saint Paul.
You are naive as frick to think that Rand or Ron have never bent the truth or would stick to their supposed guns if they were running for POTUSA.
They and everyone else will say whatever the hell they can to keep the money rolling in.
Bottom line, it does not matter what the politicians actual personal beliefs are b/c if they are tapped to run for anything they are going to say whatever they are told by the party movers and shakers to get money and votes.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 3:55 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 3:54 pm to AUsteriskPride
quote:
Romney and Obama were both shite. But continue with the 2 party warfare, it's done so well for this country.
The two worst candidates in my lifetime besides GWB and Gore.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:02 pm to ChineseBandit58
quote:
I voted for Bush twice - and am proud of it in view of the alternative of algore or jfkerry.
After the expansion of The Patriot Act, Medicare, DOE, and the initiation of corporate bailouts as well as increased deficit spending, I don't think I could take pride in that.
quote:
In this past election only an abject moron would think that an Obama presidency and a Romney presidency would be equally bad. Anyone who believes that is just not being honest with themselves.
As I have stated, most of us live in Red states, our vote did not sway the outcome, so at the very least, by branching off and growing the 3rd party numbers, the establishment might be more open to a socially liberal/economically conservative candidate.
quote:
Anyone who thinks the GOP would lead the country to the big-government entitlement victim-dominated vision of the DEM party is silly
Are you kidding? What happened under Bush? Entitlements grew, government grew, constitutional rights were trampled. Now we have the TSA/Department of Homeland Security, as well as a gigantic NSA surveillance program. I'd counter you're not being honest with how much the GOP expanded the government.
quote:
If you think Romney would have expanded the scope of government on anything approaching the scale Obama has done, you are beyond delusional.
I'm glad you think so, but in light of recent GOP actions, I don't believe you could say one way or the other. Either way, I don't trust either party to do as they say they'll do. They're both full of shite.
quote:
Even it it delays the grounding by only a month, it is preferable to instant destruction.
A long, slow, miserable death is better I suppose.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:04 pm to RachtheRedhead
quote:
Thoughts?
I hope it's a bunch of BS
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:06 pm to Dr RC
What the frick does any of that have to do with party affiliation having nothing to do with being principled? I was countering your statement that it did.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:10 pm to Aubie Spr96
quote:
The two worst candidates in my lifetime
How so with Romney?Really worse Mccain,Dole,Kerry;Clinton?
How was Romney not qualified?
JD/MBA from Harvard (top 5%)
CEO and founder of an equity firm that created
THOUSANDS of jobs and made millions
CEO Salt Lake Olympics
Won and got elected as Govenor of an overwhelming blue state.
Private and public executive/CEO experience
What candidate over the last 40 years has a better resume?
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:27 pm to AUsteriskPride
quote:
But in light of GOP actions
Like what? Did they vote for Obamacare?Did they vote
for his original stimulus plan? When was the last time
they passed/or voted for one of his budgets?
Do you REALLY think for 1 second a democratic POTUS
(Gore,Kerry,BO whatever) would have lifted EPA restrictions
on fracking and horizontal drilling?(Thank you GWB)
Once again,what's your stand on illegal immigration?Do you agree with Ron Paul?
Posted on 4/6/14 at 4:38 pm to AUsteriskPride
quote:
What the frick does any of that have to do with party affiliation having nothing to do with being principled? I was countering your statement that it did.
Because what the politician says for his party is never what he truly and fully believes.
Romney flipped on many things simply b/c that is what the money men behind the Republicans wanted to push nationally.
If you aren't an independent running with your money you are going to be molded by your political affiliation's national platform. The national party won't ever back everything you believe. You can't even win the nomination deviating too far from the money men or the base.
If you are affiliated with a party, your principles WILL bend and break. Period.
What color your team's jacket is will determine which principles you are most likely to forgo in an effort win.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 4:40 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 5:14 pm to Dr RC
Bandit, we've had this conversation a few times, and I'd like an honest answer to this question:
Had John Kerry beaten Bush, do you think Obama, or his political/philosophical equivalent, would have been elected in this decade?
I firmly believe that your "lesser of two evils" philosophy hurts this country, because I think we end up in situations where "the left" swings so far left in backlash to your terrible candidate that we end up worse than we would have been had the original liberal simply won the election. Put more simply, I think this country would have been better off with a Kerry presidency because we never would have had an Obama presidency, and the country likely would have continued moving right instead of rejecting "free market conservatism" that was anything but. Or, do you disagree? I'm genuinely curious.
Had John Kerry beaten Bush, do you think Obama, or his political/philosophical equivalent, would have been elected in this decade?
I firmly believe that your "lesser of two evils" philosophy hurts this country, because I think we end up in situations where "the left" swings so far left in backlash to your terrible candidate that we end up worse than we would have been had the original liberal simply won the election. Put more simply, I think this country would have been better off with a Kerry presidency because we never would have had an Obama presidency, and the country likely would have continued moving right instead of rejecting "free market conservatism" that was anything but. Or, do you disagree? I'm genuinely curious.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 5:17 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 6:12 pm to Joshjrn
Unless there is a mainstream conservative Republican alternative he may run. The frontrunners appear to be Rand Paul, Cruz, Ryan, and Rubio. Those are recipes for disaster in the minds of mainstream conservative Republicans. Nixon was able to make a comeback and there is a history of people running again after defeat and sometimes winning the nomination: Bryan, Dewey, Nixon, and Humphrey.
If Jeb Bush and other more non-whacko Republicans don't run, don't be surprised to see people ask him to run. Think Pat Robertson and other whack jobs.
Plus Mormons desperately want to be accepted as a Christian religion on par with other religions and that could push him to run. Mormons have a plan and getting one of them elected president is part of it. Don't discount the Mormon religious agenda.
If Jeb Bush and other more non-whacko Republicans don't run, don't be surprised to see people ask him to run. Think Pat Robertson and other whack jobs.
Plus Mormons desperately want to be accepted as a Christian religion on par with other religions and that could push him to run. Mormons have a plan and getting one of them elected president is part of it. Don't discount the Mormon religious agenda.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 6:13 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 6:33 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Put more simply, I think this country would have been better off with a Kerry presidency because we never would have had an Obama presidency, and the country likely would have continued moving right instead of rejecting "free market conservatism" that was anything but. Or, do you disagree? I'm genuinely curious.
Josh - you got me on this one. Excellent question.
I cannot answer that question because there are too many unknowns. I understand your point and it is a good one.
But my position already requires one of projection of events. Your position requires two degrees of projection. I am not nearly smart enough to work through the possibilities.
However, I do not think we would be better off had Kerry won. He is not even competent as SecState, imho. As for Bush, I think he was a good president. The only thing I quibble about is the TARP decision - however, the entire financial community insisted that TARP was required or we would surely face a financial collapse. I am nowhere near smart enough to analyze that on my own.
As for the rest of Bush's decisions, I was in support of them to varying degrees. I felt it was necessary to change the regime in Iraq and that required an invasion. The Patriot Act was a rational response to the threat we faced at the time. I have heard no substantive argument to the contrary. What I have heard is fear of the govt monitoring private conversations. I do not believe this is an outgrowth of Bush's policy, but it could be a natural expansion of the authority, like 'nose of the camel.'
I think the financial crisis that ushered in the DEM president in 08 was a direct result of DEM policy started by Carter and expanded by Clinton - the 'home-mortgage-for-everyone' fiasco. This was not Bush policy - he warned that it was impending and tried to get the congress to fix it but was rebuffed by the DEMs in control - especially Barney Frank and Chris Dodd.
Of course it was these financial repercussions that caused the ground swell of "out with the GOP" in 2008. This gave us Obama.
Now, your question is if Kerry had won, would Obama have been re-elected? Perhaps you are right in that Kerry would have made the situation much worse and a GOP sweep would have occurred in 2008 - That would have given us McCain - not my favorite GOP candidate. Certainly better than Obama though.
Your question will require much more introspection on my part. I doubt I can do better than ramble incoherent thoughts such as above, but I cannot do any better at the moment.
I still believe that we have to do the best we can in the moment and trust that we will do better in the future.
I just cannot see it being morally correct to knowingly elect a disaster in the hopes things will be so bad we may win the next time around. That is way to complex a system to bet the nation's future on, imho.
In the space business, we had an expression that I believe fits this situation = "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough."
Posted on 4/6/14 at 7:15 pm to ChineseBandit58
I certainly concede that we are treading dangerously deep in the waters of conjecture. Further, I don't pretend as though my line of thinking will convince you to start voting third party. My only intention is to support the possibility that voting third party isn't blindly standing on principle or "throwing away" one's vote. There is a line of logic behind refusing to support the lesser of two evils.
Now, are there individuals who allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good? Probably. All I can say is that I'm not one of them. I don't require 100% conformity to my beliefs. If I agreed with Gary Johnson 99% and Romney 80%, I would vote for Romney in a heartbeat. The problem was that I agreed with Romney about 40% (I took a couple of those silly tests around election time). That's simply not good enough.
This election cycle might be proof of my assertion. I probably only agree with Rand Paul on about 80-85% of issues. But, I'll vote for him without a second thought if he gets the Republican nomination even though I will agree with the Libertarian candidate more.
Now, are there individuals who allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good? Probably. All I can say is that I'm not one of them. I don't require 100% conformity to my beliefs. If I agreed with Gary Johnson 99% and Romney 80%, I would vote for Romney in a heartbeat. The problem was that I agreed with Romney about 40% (I took a couple of those silly tests around election time). That's simply not good enough.
This election cycle might be proof of my assertion. I probably only agree with Rand Paul on about 80-85% of issues. But, I'll vote for him without a second thought if he gets the Republican nomination even though I will agree with the Libertarian candidate more.
This post was edited on 4/6/14 at 7:16 pm
Posted on 4/6/14 at 7:24 pm to Ralph_Wiggum
quote:
If Jeb Bush and other more non-whacko Republicans don't run
Posted on 4/6/14 at 7:30 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
I probably only agree with Rand Paul on about 80-85% of issues. But, I'll vote for him without a second thought if he gets the Republican nomination even though I will agree with the Libertarian candidate more.
Cannot ask for more than that.
Posted on 4/6/14 at 7:49 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
This election cycle might be proof of my assertion. I probably only agree with Rand Paul on about 80-85% of issues. But, I'll vote for him without a second thought if he gets the Republican nomination even though I will agree with the Libertarian candidate more.
Same here.. With Romney I wasn't even halfway there. How can I muster up a vote for that? At some point, there is no net gain. Rand gets me about 70% or so there, so I can handle that.
Also, some believe me to be a big Paul guy, and while I agree with him a lot, I was definitely a Gary Johnson guy. He edged past the 95% mark for my beliefs.
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