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re: Robert Reich delivers lecture on greed while earning $240K for one class
Posted on 8/7/14 at 12:29 pm to Strophie
Posted on 8/7/14 at 12:29 pm to Strophie
quote:
Just keeping pace with Strophie's post count.
??
Okay. Not sure if that was intended as a dig, but sure. I am a long-time lurker, and that is my first substantial post. Got me?
1
Posted on 8/7/14 at 12:34 pm to HonoraryCoonass
quote:
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a libtard say men should not be allowed to comment on abortion, I'd be as rich as Robert Reich. (The HYPOCRITE, Robert Reich)
Posted on 8/7/14 at 12:38 pm to Strophie
That was my second post too.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 12:39 pm to Strophie
quote:Solution to what? Why is being successful a problem that needs to be "solved"?
So what's the solution to this issue then?
Posted on 8/7/14 at 12:52 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Solution to what? Why is being successful a problem that needs to be "solved"?
Being successful in and of itself isn't an issue at all.
And look, to be really clear, I don’t claim to be any crazy authority on this. I have a finance background professionally and feel like I’m at least educated enough on the major concepts to understand the implications of lots of things. That said, I’d the first to admit that I don’t have any definitive answers. So keep that in mind while reading my response.
The issue I see is that increased productivity, primarily from increased technology, is causing more of the profits of business organizations to pool at the top, naturally. More automation = less need for labor = higher payout to capital. In a vacuum, there’s nothing implicitly wrong with this. If a business owner takes the personal risk of capitalizing a business and then hits it out of the park, by whatever means, that’s great. And I think they are entitled to the benefits provided to them from running a successful entity.
The problem, insofar as I see it, is that I only see this increased productivity continuing, and at a rather faster clip than it has been. The result being, of course, that more capital will then be collected by an increasingly smaller portion of individuals. So what happens to those who don’t (or can’t) replicate the success of the small number of business owners? I don’t think “get educated and work hard” is really a fair solution. That’s true for some people, but for many, they simply cannot succeed at the same level.
I admit that I am a bit of an idealist when it comes to solutions. I have tons that I could offer up, but they are easy to poke holes in, and most simmer down to being undercut by a version of the Prisoner’s Dilemma. Namely, I would love it if society as a whole (corporate entities and individuals included) felt that it was beholden of them to try and raise the quality of life “floor,” as it were, across the board. But even I can quickly rattle off plenty of reasons why it wouldn't work.
So again, I don’t have an answer. I just think that it’s something that will eventually bite us in the arse if we don’t address it in some regard. Particularly if my personal view of how advancing technology will impact labor and productivity comes to pass.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:00 pm to HonoraryCoonass
quote:
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a libtard say men should not be allowed to comment on abortion, I'd be as rich as Robert Reich. (The HYPOCRITE, Robert Reich)
Meh. I think the issue is when woman's voices are ignored on the topic, which really they aren't.
Although the SCOTUS vote on hobby lobby was telling.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:05 pm to Strophie
quote:
I don’t claim to be any crazy authority on this. I have a finance background professionally and feel like I’m at least educated enough on the major concepts to understand the implications of lots of things. That said, I’d the first to admit that I don’t have any definitive answers. So keep that in mind while reading my response.
You don't belong here. Far too humble.
quote:
More automation = less need for labor = higher payout to capital.
Keep in mind that this also => higher marginal productivity of labor, which => means increased demand for labor, which => higher (or at least not-lower) wages for labor. In the case of the US, that very likely is only true for skilled labor, though
This post was edited on 8/7/14 at 1:07 pm
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:07 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
Keep in mind that this also => higher marginal productivity of labor. In the case of the US, that very likely is only true for skilled labor, though
Very true. That's implicit in my argument but I should've spelled it out.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:08 pm to Strophie
(edited above post too late, to point out that this implies higher return to labor as well as capital)
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:11 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
(edited above post too late, to point out that this implies higher return to labor as well as capital)
I don't think skilled labor will be impacted much in the short-term.
Long-term, however, I think it will go the same way. I have no qualms about seeing how, looking down the road long enough, my own position could be automated to an extent that a shrewd business owner would chose to replace me with automation. And I consider myself as particularly skilled labor.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:15 pm to Strophie
quote:
Long-term, however, I think it will go the same way.
My job is not close to automate-able any time soon, but I'm sure at some point in the distant future it will be, as will most jobs as they exist now. But I see no reason to doubt that the labor force will generally adjust accordingly, as it always has.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:19 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
My job is not close to automate-able any time soon, but I'm sure at some point in the distant future it will be, as will most jobs as they exist now. But I see no reason to doubt that the labor force will generally adjust accordingly, as it always has.
So I don't have the time or wherewithal to post a super detailed response to this, but sufficed to say that my particular viewpoint is probably quite a bit more extreme on the impacts of technological advancement, and as a result, I disagree here.
I personally think that automation of skilled labor positions is coming much more quickly than most anticipate. Further, I don't believe that the labor force will be able to adjust.
I get the "but what will the buggy whip makers do!" counter argument can be used. But frankly, I don't see there being a place for skilled labor (or any labor for that matter) to move to.
Granted, I could be very wrong, but I think the next couple decades are going to have huge, huge ramifications in how society and the economy, in particular, will function.
Edited to add: I should also mention that I think, eventually, some form of a guaranteed basic income will be adopted, by necessity if nothing else.
This post was edited on 8/7/14 at 1:22 pm
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:20 pm to Hawkeye95
Of course everyone should be free to have an opinion, but his lectures on greed seem a little disingenuous coming from someone who is a 1 percenter, just as lectures admonishing us to reduce our carbon footprints by Al Gore are. It's hard to take either of those guys seriously. People watch what you do more than what you say.
A very wise Man once said, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
A very wise Man once said, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:22 pm to Clete Purcel
quote:
Of course everyone should be free to have an opinion, but his lectures on greed seem a little disingenuous coming from someone who is a 1 percenter, just as lectures admonishing us to reduce our carbon footprints by Al Gore are.
Conceded and agreed. But that still doesn't address the meat of his argument, which, as I said, I find compelling.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:54 pm to Strophie
quote:
I should also mention that I think, eventually, some form of a guaranteed basic income will be adopted, by necessity if nothing else.
I am aware that this view is in vogue, and I'm also aware that the view that automation will accelerate faster than most expect is as well. I'm not saying that the basic income being inevitable argument is without merit, but it's never really been convincing to me. Sort of for the same reason that I don't share this viewpoint:
quote:
frankly, I don't see there being a place for skilled labor (or any labor for that matter) to move to.
If this is true about labor, and is true because of rapid tech and machine intelligence improvements (which WILL have to significantly improve before many more tasks can become automated), there is little reason for much of the population to exist at all.
And if tech and AI is what gets humanity to that point- the point of ever-growing numbers of us living purely for consumption of stuff made by a few people and a lot of machines that are smarter than us- I don't see a worthless underclass or their universal guaranteed income policy existing for long. I see the vast majority of that generation lasting for about... that one generation.
This post was edited on 8/7/14 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 8/7/14 at 1:54 pm to Strophie
I agree with you. There is a lot of merit to his argument. I agree with a lot that he says. I guess this is my cynicism coming out, but people of his political stripe always have the answer - wealth redistribution.
Government AND business have one primary thing in common - people run them. Just as in business, politicians are faulty people looking out for themselves with serious character issues, greed and selfishness, but yet we elect them and trust them to solve our problems time and time again and things only get worse. Stirring up class envy is ugly, and I think, why "Thou Shalt not Covet" is one of the 10 commandments. I would just take a lecture on greed a lot better by someone who donates a great portion of his income to charity, lives a modest life and isn't contributing to the very system he decries.
Take for instance the financial collapse of 2008 where many Americans who sacrificed and saved saw their savings vaporize. We were told by our elected officials that it was the fatcat bankers and Wall Street types who created this crash and that they would be held responsible. How many of them have been jailed? The last I checked, the answer is NONE of them. But former Goldman Sachs employees and the other fat cat Wall Street types move from banking into appointed positions within our government where fraud, insider trading and tax cheating abounds. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious? It always seems the very people denouncing our (imperfect) system are profiting off of it while the middle class gets the shaft.
Government AND business have one primary thing in common - people run them. Just as in business, politicians are faulty people looking out for themselves with serious character issues, greed and selfishness, but yet we elect them and trust them to solve our problems time and time again and things only get worse. Stirring up class envy is ugly, and I think, why "Thou Shalt not Covet" is one of the 10 commandments. I would just take a lecture on greed a lot better by someone who donates a great portion of his income to charity, lives a modest life and isn't contributing to the very system he decries.
Take for instance the financial collapse of 2008 where many Americans who sacrificed and saved saw their savings vaporize. We were told by our elected officials that it was the fatcat bankers and Wall Street types who created this crash and that they would be held responsible. How many of them have been jailed? The last I checked, the answer is NONE of them. But former Goldman Sachs employees and the other fat cat Wall Street types move from banking into appointed positions within our government where fraud, insider trading and tax cheating abounds. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious? It always seems the very people denouncing our (imperfect) system are profiting off of it while the middle class gets the shaft.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 2:00 pm to Strophie
quote:
I don’t think “get educated and work hard” is really a fair solution. That’s true for some people, but for many, they simply cannot succeed at the same level.
And thus we as society need to compensate them for their lack of success? This increased productivity to which you allude not only has increased wealth at the top but has also raised standards of living for all. Nothing keeps inflation in check like productivity growth. Mr. Unsuccessful has more material goods now then ever in history because of said productivity.
So as Mr. Unsuccessful complains about the wealth gap in his Iphone in front of one of the 4 flatscreen's he has in the house he owns - excuse me for not fighting for his 'plight'.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 2:03 pm to Strophie
quote:
I hate that the issue can’t be discussed without those on the right having a knee-jerk “JEALOUSY! CLASS WARFARE!”
It is not knee jerk at all. Every single proposition from the left is to take from the producers and reallocate to the non producers. Simple as that. You may not call it war, perhaps you would prefer theft? But lets not pretend it is not pitting one group against another with the objective or reallocating forcibly away from one and to the other.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 2:08 pm to Clete Purcel
quote:
I guess this is my cynicism coming out, but people of his political stripe always have the answer - wealth redistribution
See, nothing against you personally Clete, and I don't think this was intended to be in any way malicious, but this is was I'm talking about.
Who are the "people of [my] political stripe"? I don't believe I've really alluded to my general mindset beyond this stance on this once issue, which in and of itself is shaky and not at all confident. I've admitted that my thoughts are probably verging on idealist and unrealistic in the current environment, but now I'm assigned to one of the two binary positions that seem to exist in all discussions. It drives me batty that discussions can't be had with some give and take of ideas.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." My favorite quote, from Aristotle. I know that sounds really pretentious, but I truly believe we could use more of that kind of mindset.
Now, as to the rest of your response:
quote:
Government AND business have one primary thing in common - people run them. Just as in business, politicians are faulty people looking out for themselves with serious character issues, greed and selfishness, but yet we elect them and trust them to solve our problems time and time again and things only get worse. Stirring up class envy is ugly, and I think, why "Thou Shalt not Covet" is one of the 10 commandments. I would just take a lecture on greed a lot better by someone who donates a great portion of his income to charity, lives a modest life and isn't contributing to the very system he decries.
I agree with all of this. But despite that, I still think that this is an issue that has enough of a potential to cause harm that it merits the discussion.
quote:
Take for instance the financial collapse of 2008 where many Americans who sacrificed and saved saw their savings vaporize. We were told by our elected officials that it was the fatcat bankers and Wall Street types who created this crash and that they would be held responsible. How many of them have been jailed? The last I checked, the answer is NONE of them. But former Goldman Sachs employees and the other fat cat Wall Street types move from banking into appointed positions within our government where fraud, insider trading and tax cheating abounds. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious? It always seems the very people denouncing our (imperfect) system are profiting off of it while the middle class gets the shaft.
Agreed here as well. Again, I don't have answers. It just seems to me that wealth inequality with continue to become more of a national discussion, and my (again, idealized) viewpoint is that it should be, because I believe it's natural ramifications will be major issues in the not-to-distant future.
Posted on 8/7/14 at 2:12 pm to Quidam65
Someone at UC-Berkeley thought he deserved it. I can't blame him for taking the money. My question is this: Who negotiated the deal? It's a sweet one IMO.
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