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Started By
Message
Question RE: ISIS
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:25 am
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:25 am
I apologize if this has been discussed already, I am on the board fairly frequently, but haven't seen anything on this specifically.
I was looking at a map of the areas under control of ISIS. The map showed a chunk of N Iraq, and east Syria.
SO...are these the same people that our lovely leaders have been providing some training and weapons to??? If so, why has the fact that only a few months ago there was a huge push to provide more support than we have been not been mentioned?
Disclaimer: This isn't directed at Obama or left. Obviously there was repubs (such as McCain) pushing for more support.
I was looking at a map of the areas under control of ISIS. The map showed a chunk of N Iraq, and east Syria.
SO...are these the same people that our lovely leaders have been providing some training and weapons to??? If so, why has the fact that only a few months ago there was a huge push to provide more support than we have been not been mentioned?
Disclaimer: This isn't directed at Obama or left. Obviously there was repubs (such as McCain) pushing for more support.
This post was edited on 6/13/14 at 2:24 pm
5
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:27 am to LSUnation78
quote:Wouldn't that be east Syria?
and west Syria.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:28 am to LSUnation78
ISIS are the good guys in Syria and the bad guys in Iraq. Iran is the bad guy in Syria and now the good guy in Iraq. It's all pretty simple 
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:28 am to LSUnation78
Don't worry about it.
Barry has the last word on the matter.
"The war in Iraq is over"
Barry has the last word on the matter.
"The war in Iraq is over"
This post was edited on 6/13/14 at 10:30 am
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:29 am to TrueTiger
I put this in another thread but I'll just repost it. This is my understanding.
You got the Sunni who were once in control of Iraq but then pushed out and are now trying to overthrow both the governments in Syria and Iraq and are backed by Saudi Arabia. The U.S. supports them in Syria, but not in Iraq.
You got the Shia who are trying to hold onto power in Syria and Iraq and they also dominate Iran.
You got the Kurds who have a semi-autonomous region in parts of Iraq but deep down they really want their own country which would include parts of Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Turkey. Sensing weakness in Iraq, they are moving to consolidate territory while the Shia's and Sunni's are fighting.
You got the U.S. who is backing the Sunni's in Syria but backing the Shia in Iraq and have a solid relationship with the Kurds as well. To complicate matters they are feuding with the Shia's in Iran but are allies with the Sunni's in Saudi Arabia. To make things even more complicated, they overthrew the Sunni's in Iraq and installed the Shia which kickstarted this whole process.
You got Turkey who is for the most part a force of stability and moderation in the region. However they are weary of the Kurds encroaching on their territory even though a part part of the population is Kurdish.
You got Iran who is an enemy of the U.S. and the Sunni's. However, they share goals with the U.S. in Iraq in keeping a Shia government in place but they are fighting the U.S. and Saudi Arabia in Syria who want to install a Sunni government.
You got Iraq which had a Sunni government that was overthrown by the US and replaced with a Shia government. However the Shia government is quickly losing control over of over 2/3's of the country to both the Sunni and Kurds.
You got the Sunni who were once in control of Iraq but then pushed out and are now trying to overthrow both the governments in Syria and Iraq and are backed by Saudi Arabia. The U.S. supports them in Syria, but not in Iraq.
You got the Shia who are trying to hold onto power in Syria and Iraq and they also dominate Iran.
You got the Kurds who have a semi-autonomous region in parts of Iraq but deep down they really want their own country which would include parts of Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Turkey. Sensing weakness in Iraq, they are moving to consolidate territory while the Shia's and Sunni's are fighting.
You got the U.S. who is backing the Sunni's in Syria but backing the Shia in Iraq and have a solid relationship with the Kurds as well. To complicate matters they are feuding with the Shia's in Iran but are allies with the Sunni's in Saudi Arabia. To make things even more complicated, they overthrew the Sunni's in Iraq and installed the Shia which kickstarted this whole process.
You got Turkey who is for the most part a force of stability and moderation in the region. However they are weary of the Kurds encroaching on their territory even though a part part of the population is Kurdish.
You got Iran who is an enemy of the U.S. and the Sunni's. However, they share goals with the U.S. in Iraq in keeping a Shia government in place but they are fighting the U.S. and Saudi Arabia in Syria who want to install a Sunni government.
You got Iraq which had a Sunni government that was overthrown by the US and replaced with a Shia government. However the Shia government is quickly losing control over of over 2/3's of the country to both the Sunni and Kurds.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:33 am to blowmeauburn
Clusterfrick comes to mind.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:34 am to blowmeauburn
Gotcha.
I guess the only thing to do now is nuke the whole place and start over.
I guess the only thing to do now is nuke the whole place and start over.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:37 am to TrueTiger
I wonder how many young men have died at the hands of ISIS today, I'm sure the press will have an ongoing count soon
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:39 am to LSUnation78
quote:
SO...are these the same people that our lovely leaders have been providing some training and weapons to???
I have been wondering the same thing. I hope someone can give us some good insight.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:48 am to blowmeauburn
There are 5 main groups in the Middle East: Israelis (Jews), Kurds, Sunnis (Arabs), shiites (Persians), and Turks.
Rule #1: Everyone hates everyone.
In all of the nations of the Middle East, there are Sunni and Shiite populations, generally with one in the majority and one in the minority. In Middle East Democracies, the majority is in charge. In Military Dictatorships, the minority is in charge. The Kurds have no countries where they are in the majority. Their territory is in Eastern Syria and Turkey, Northern Iraq, and North-Western Iran. They are a mostly peaceful people and their regions of those countries are generally very business friendly and stable when they're not getting gas attacked by one of the other 3 Muslim groups.
The main Sunni powers are Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Dubai, Quatar, ect. Basically, your Arab states. In all of those Arab countries, a Sunni king rules over a nation that is generally majority or slightly minority Sunni.
The main Shiite run countries are Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. However, Syria, being a military dictatorship, has a majority Sunni population. Right now, they're Sunnis are rebelling against the Shiite government run by Assad.
The main Shiite paramilitary powers are Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Shiite militias in Iraq.
The main Sunni paramilitary powers are Al-Qaeda, The Taliban, ISIS, and Hamas.
In the middle East, you have several levels of hate:
Hate level 1: the universal disdain that every ethnic group has for America
Hate Level 2: the universal disdain that every ethnic group has for each other
Hate level 3: The hatred the Sunnis, Turks, and Shias have for the Kurds
Hate level 4: the level of hatred the Sunnis, Shias, Kurds, and Turks have for the Jews.
Basically, the different Sects won't work together to fight the U.S. most of the time. The will occasionally work together to fight each other. All of the other Muslim groups will work together to fight the Kurds, and all 4 Muslim groups (including Kurds) will work together to fight the Jews.
In the Middle East, the U.S. generally supports 4, often mutually exclusive, things: Democracy, the safety of U.S. citizens and trade, the safety of Israel, and the interests of Saudi Arabia. It is easy to see where these things can clash.
In Iraq, we supported democracy and the interests of American businesses, but in the process, we made Israel less safe by removing an Israeli ally and replacing it with a government that has close ties to an Israeli enemy (Iran). This also went against the interests of Saudi Arabia.
In Syria and Lybia, we were supporting democracy, but bankrolling Al Qaeda-aligned terrorist groups and going against our security/business interests. For Israel, the region is destabilized. Removing Qaddafi hurt them, but removing Assad may help or hurt them depending on what groups gain power in the end.
In Egypt, we sided with democracy, which Hurt business interests and Israel's security. The new military rule there goes against democracy, but helps to save Israel from potential war in the Sinai.
In Iran, we took no side. We abandoned democracy, Israel, our business interests, and the Saudis for no reason right as the current regime was on the verge of falling to a more sympathetic challenger.
Rule #1: Everyone hates everyone.
In all of the nations of the Middle East, there are Sunni and Shiite populations, generally with one in the majority and one in the minority. In Middle East Democracies, the majority is in charge. In Military Dictatorships, the minority is in charge. The Kurds have no countries where they are in the majority. Their territory is in Eastern Syria and Turkey, Northern Iraq, and North-Western Iran. They are a mostly peaceful people and their regions of those countries are generally very business friendly and stable when they're not getting gas attacked by one of the other 3 Muslim groups.
The main Sunni powers are Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Dubai, Quatar, ect. Basically, your Arab states. In all of those Arab countries, a Sunni king rules over a nation that is generally majority or slightly minority Sunni.
The main Shiite run countries are Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. However, Syria, being a military dictatorship, has a majority Sunni population. Right now, they're Sunnis are rebelling against the Shiite government run by Assad.
The main Shiite paramilitary powers are Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Shiite militias in Iraq.
The main Sunni paramilitary powers are Al-Qaeda, The Taliban, ISIS, and Hamas.
In the middle East, you have several levels of hate:
Hate level 1: the universal disdain that every ethnic group has for America
Hate Level 2: the universal disdain that every ethnic group has for each other
Hate level 3: The hatred the Sunnis, Turks, and Shias have for the Kurds
Hate level 4: the level of hatred the Sunnis, Shias, Kurds, and Turks have for the Jews.
Basically, the different Sects won't work together to fight the U.S. most of the time. The will occasionally work together to fight each other. All of the other Muslim groups will work together to fight the Kurds, and all 4 Muslim groups (including Kurds) will work together to fight the Jews.
In the Middle East, the U.S. generally supports 4, often mutually exclusive, things: Democracy, the safety of U.S. citizens and trade, the safety of Israel, and the interests of Saudi Arabia. It is easy to see where these things can clash.
In Iraq, we supported democracy and the interests of American businesses, but in the process, we made Israel less safe by removing an Israeli ally and replacing it with a government that has close ties to an Israeli enemy (Iran). This also went against the interests of Saudi Arabia.
In Syria and Lybia, we were supporting democracy, but bankrolling Al Qaeda-aligned terrorist groups and going against our security/business interests. For Israel, the region is destabilized. Removing Qaddafi hurt them, but removing Assad may help or hurt them depending on what groups gain power in the end.
In Egypt, we sided with democracy, which Hurt business interests and Israel's security. The new military rule there goes against democracy, but helps to save Israel from potential war in the Sinai.
In Iran, we took no side. We abandoned democracy, Israel, our business interests, and the Saudis for no reason right as the current regime was on the verge of falling to a more sympathetic challenger.
This post was edited on 6/13/14 at 10:57 am
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:51 am to kingbob
quote:
They are a mostly peaceful people and their regions of those countries are generally very business friendly and stable when they're not getting gas attacked by one of the other 3 Muslim groups.
Sounds like my type of people. Let's be friends with them. frick everyone else.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 10:58 am to kingbob
ISIS has not been trained by US forces. They are radical Sunni (more radical than Al Qaeda), who instantly kill apostates. Their leader has a phd in Islamic Studies. Like Bin Laden, it is his way or the highway, when it comes to Islam. They are so treacherous that the Iraqi Army in Mosul rans like chickens.
The Sunnis were left on the outside after the fall of Saddam. Bush's hand pick successor ended up being Maliki, who is Shia, is aligned with Iran. The US spent $17 billion training Maliki's military, but they have been unable to rid Iraq of ISIS & groups like that.
Al Qaeda, ISIS, and the like were not present in Iraq at the time of the US invasion in 2003. US intervention attracted them to Iraq. There are all kinds of splinter organizations.
The Sunnis were left on the outside after the fall of Saddam. Bush's hand pick successor ended up being Maliki, who is Shia, is aligned with Iran. The US spent $17 billion training Maliki's military, but they have been unable to rid Iraq of ISIS & groups like that.
Al Qaeda, ISIS, and the like were not present in Iraq at the time of the US invasion in 2003. US intervention attracted them to Iraq. There are all kinds of splinter organizations.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:04 am to Big12fan
By shutting out the military and all former Saddam government employees from the new government, it created a large subset of the population that was unemployed, highly armed, well trained, and had reason to hate the new government and the U.S. Once ISIS came in with their organization and money, those types flocked to them because they offered them something the new government wasn't: a valuable role in their organization.
Also, I believe ISIS forces have gotten a hold of some of the weapons sold to various Sunni groups in Syria via Benghazi. It's like Iran-Contra on steroids.
Also, I believe ISIS forces have gotten a hold of some of the weapons sold to various Sunni groups in Syria via Benghazi. It's like Iran-Contra on steroids.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:06 am to kingbob
quote:
By shutting out the military and all former Saddam government employees from the new government, it created a large subset of the population that was unemployed, highly armed, well trained, and had reason to hate the new government and the U.S. Once ISIS came in with their organization and money, those types flocked to them because they offered them something the new government wasn't: a valuable role in their organization.
We really screwed the pooch there. To this day I'm dumbfounded by that decision.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:14 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
We really screwed the pooch there. To this day I'm dumbfounded by that decision.
Reminds me of the criticism that Patton got for putting Nazis in postwar government positions.
He said he did it because they were the only people around who knew how to run things.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:17 am to TrueTiger
quote:
He said he did it because they were the only people around who knew how to run things.
Exactly. Very good comparison. Most of the Nazis in the government weren't hardcorps Nazis. You just had to be a member of the party to get a decent job. Same with the Ba'athists in Iraq.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:20 am to blowmeauburn
quote:That makes my head hurt.
I put this in another thread but I'll just repost it. This is my understanding.
You got the Sunni who were once in control of Iraq but then pushed out and are now trying to overthrow both the governments in Syria and Iraq and are backed by Saudi Arabia. The U.S. supports them in Syria, but not in Iraq.
You got the Shia who are trying to hold onto power in Syria and Iraq and they also dominate Iran.
You got the Kurds who have a semi-autonomous region in parts of Iraq but deep down they really want their own country which would include parts of Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Turkey. Sensing weakness in Iraq, they are moving to consolidate territory while the Shia's and Sunni's are fighting.
You got the U.S. who is backing the Sunni's in Syria but backing the Shia in Iraq and have a solid relationship with the Kurds as well. To complicate matters they are feuding with the Shia's in Iran but are allies with the Sunni's in Saudi Arabia. To make things even more complicated, they overthrew the Sunni's in Iraq and installed the Shia which kickstarted this whole process.
You got Turkey who is for the most part a force of stability and moderation in the region. However they are weary of the Kurds encroaching on their territory even though a part part of the population is Kurdish.
You got Iran who is an enemy of the U.S. and the Sunni's. However, they share goals with the U.S. in Iraq in keeping a Shia government in place but they are fighting the U.S. and Saudi Arabia in Syria who want to install a Sunni government.
You got Iraq which had a Sunni government that was overthrown by the US and replaced with a Shia government. However the Shia government is quickly losing control over of over 2/3's of the country to both the Sunni and Kurds.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:26 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
We really screwed the pooch there. To this day I'm dumbfounded by that decision.
Here's all I can think of on this issue that you have rightly mentioned previously: Why did the US throw out the Baath ?
The Baath Party were Sunnis and Saddamists. Also, they were the minority ethnic group in Iraq. It could be that the US policy-makers at the time thought that all Baathists had to go. They were bad guys in many ways. The US wanted a clean slate and a proper representation of the ethnic majority.
I agree with you that this plan wasn't going to work. It would have been better to keep remove Saddam but keep the Baathist Iraqi governmental structure in place for stability purposes.
This situation in Iraq may end up being like what happened to Germany after World War One.
The Allies demanded that defeated Imperial Germany dismantle its model of governance. When the replacement Weimar Republic deteriorated, it was then replaced by a virulent and destructive extremist government.
Perhaps a reformed Imperial Germany would have been able to withstand the challenges of extremism. Perhaps a reformed Baathist Iraq would be a stable post-Saddam Iraq today.
The problem with Imperial Germany was Wilhelm the Kaiser. Get a better Kaiser and solve the problem. Don't throw out stability.
The problem with Saddamist Iraq was Saddam. Get rid of Saddam and maybe Baathist Iraq becomes a stable and productive member of the community of nations.
Who knows?
This post was edited on 6/13/14 at 11:28 am
Posted on 6/13/14 at 11:58 am to kingbob
quote:
Hate level 4: the level of hatred the Sunnis, Shias, Kurds, and Turks have for the Jews.
The Kurds don't really hate the Jews.
Posted on 6/13/14 at 12:05 pm to carbola
quote:
The Kurds don't really hate the Jews.
Their ancestors were Jews, converted to Islam by force.
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