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Posted on 7/17/14 at 12:33 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
If an embryo and sperm become a 'person' the instant they join - what becomes of that 'person' if it splits in two to form identical twins?
As the father of identical twins, you don't think we've had this discussion? At one point they were the same person. That's a scientific fact.
quote:
Further - if someone absorbs a fraternal twin in utero (which is quite common actually)
Identical twins can disappear, too - it's called vanishing twin syndrome - the twin that disappears dies, technically a miscarriage.
quote:
EDIT - for Jesus believers - the scientific basis for a 'virgin birth' would be parthenogenic reproduction. If that is actually possible for humans - it means every single oocyte in a woman's ovaries are human beings - (and not just a any human being, but a potential 2nd coming). Wouldn't that mean removal of the ovaries would constitute mass murder?
You an an inveterate troll and I am going to cease attempting to have a reasonable debate with you - you flame on instinct. Instead of wanting to actually have a debate on a serious subject (the nature of human life, humanity, etc.) - you start flaming in the OP.
Good day sir.
This post was edited on 7/17/14 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 7/17/14 at 12:42 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
As the father of identical twins
Congrats to their mother on her reproductive efficiency! I often wish we had two of my son.
quote:
, you don't think we've had this discussion? At one point they were the same person.
But what becomes of the identity of the original pre-split 'person'?
quote:I don't think science defines the term "person"
That's a scientific fact.
quote:
You an an inveterate troll and I am going to cease attempting to have a reasonable debate with you - you flame on instinct. Instead of wanting to actually have a debate on a serious subject (the nature of human life, humanity, etc.) - you start flaming in the OP.
There are entire species of lizards that are pathenogenic.
Although parthenogensis has not been observed to naturally occur in mammals - it has been induced in mammals. It is thus reasonable to suppose one day in the future women may be able to induce parthenogenic pregnancies. You might want to consider how the definition of 'person' will change at that point - considering women are actually born with all of their diploid oocytes.
Posted on 7/17/14 at 12:44 pm to gatorrocks
quote:
gatorrocks
I'm just curious. When you watch "Sunny" - do you laugh with the gang, or do you laugh at the gang?
Posted on 7/17/14 at 12:49 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
SpidermanTUba
Since you failed to answer the question earlier, we will revisit it at this juncture.
So, when does the embryo become a human being? Kind of important to know when don't you think? Because if we are going to end the life of a human being (rather than an embryo), we may have some moral/ethical/legal issues.
ETA: Want to get this level of clarity because I sure would not want to mislabel you as "anti-life" or anything like that.
This post was edited on 7/17/14 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:01 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
So, when does the embryo become a human being?
I did answer. Some time between conception and birth.
quote:
ETA: Want to get this level of clarity because I sure would not want to mislabel you as "anti-life" or anything like that.
bullshite. Calling yourself "pro-life" implies just the same.
This post was edited on 7/17/14 at 1:02 pm
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:03 pm to SpidermanTUba
Im still waiting for you to tell us the difference between an egg and an embryo
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:05 pm to fleaux
quote:
Im still waiting for you to tell us the difference between an egg and an embryo
A parthenogenic embryo? Or an ordinary one?
A mature egg? Or an oocyte?
This post was edited on 7/17/14 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:06 pm to SpidermanTUba
i pray that you never grow tired of looking stupid
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:07 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
I did answer. Some time between conception and birth.
Wow. So, you can also commit murder sometime between conception and birth then? Because you do not seem to be able to clearly define when it is no longer an embryo and (in fact) becomes a person.
quote:
Calling yourself "pro-life" implies just the same.
Is there a clear thought in here and I am just missing it?
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:09 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Because you do not seem to be able to clearly define when it is no longer an embryo and (in fact) becomes a person.
Yes. Though the ability to survive outside of the womb would be reasonable.
This post was edited on 7/17/14 at 1:10 pm
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:10 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
A parthenogenic embryo?
Are there human examples of parthenogenic embryos?
quote:
Or an ordinary one?
Yes, ordinary human embryos - the ones being aborted, legally, by the million.
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:13 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
If an embryo and sperm become a 'person' the instant they join - what becomes of that 'person' if it splits in two to form identical twins?
quote:
A parthenogenic embryo? Or an ordinary one? A mature egg? Or an oocyte?
This type of embryo you ooened the thread with, the one you say joins with a sperm
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:13 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Yes. Though the ability to survive outside of the womb would be reasonable.
So, before they are able to survive outside the womb, they are not a person? This is not consistent with your argument that you made earlier. Your earlier position was "Some time between conception and birth."
Huge difference.
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:14 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Are there human examples of parthenogenic embryos?
Only one.
quote:
Yes, ordinary human embryos - the ones being aborted, legally, by the million.
Do you want the difference between an ordinary embryo and an immature egg - or an ordinary embryo and a mature egg?
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:15 pm to SpidermanTUba
Embryo and sperm = Tuba
They are very, very rare. It is what occurs when a jealous sperm fricks an unborn baby.
They are very, very rare. It is what occurs when a jealous sperm fricks an unborn baby.
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:15 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
So, before they are able to survive outside the womb, they are not a person?
Yes.
quote:
"Some time between conception and birth."
I'm pretty sure viability occurs between conception and birth.
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:17 pm to SpidermanTUba
Tuba please stop , the third word of your opening statement proved you don't know enough about this subject to debate it
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:21 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
or an ordinary embryo and a mature egg?
There you go - let's start there.
Posted on 7/17/14 at 1:26 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
If an embryo and sperm become a 'person' the instant they join - what becomes of that 'person' if it splits in two to form identical twins?
Further - if someone absorbs a fraternal twin in utero (which is quite common actually) - is does that mean they are actually two people? Should they get two votes?
EDIT - for Jesus believers - the scientific basis for a 'virgin birth' would be parthenogenic reproduction. If that is actually possible for humans - it means every single oocyte in a woman's ovaries are human beings - (and not just a any human being, but a potential 2nd coming). Wouldn't that mean removal of the ovaries would constitute mass murder?
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