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Started By
Message
Open Carry vs. Stand Your Ground...
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:09 pm
LINK
The video isn't that important to the thread; watch it if you want. It's a Jon Stewart bit on something I sort of mentioned a while back. If I see some arse hat walking into a store with an AK, I'm going to draw my Glock or Walther (whichever I'm concealed carrying) and at least make sure the dude declares his intentions or drops his weapon. What if I don't? He comes in and kills everyone? What if I do? He fires because I drew my weapon on him? If he's reasonable, he'll get it, but we almost all agree that this dude isn't reasonable.
I'm put in an impossible situation with this. Open carrying into public places shouldn't be illegal. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is if I'm in 7/11 with my nephew and one of these dudes decides he'd like to walk in with his AK on his back, it is impossible for me to know what he plans on doing and it's entirely reasonable for me, as a thinking person, to assume that he's not there just for some cookies or something. I should be free to fire in states where Stand Your Ground is in effect.
Am I crazy here, or does this make at least a certain amount of sense?
The video isn't that important to the thread; watch it if you want. It's a Jon Stewart bit on something I sort of mentioned a while back. If I see some arse hat walking into a store with an AK, I'm going to draw my Glock or Walther (whichever I'm concealed carrying) and at least make sure the dude declares his intentions or drops his weapon. What if I don't? He comes in and kills everyone? What if I do? He fires because I drew my weapon on him? If he's reasonable, he'll get it, but we almost all agree that this dude isn't reasonable.
I'm put in an impossible situation with this. Open carrying into public places shouldn't be illegal. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is if I'm in 7/11 with my nephew and one of these dudes decides he'd like to walk in with his AK on his back, it is impossible for me to know what he plans on doing and it's entirely reasonable for me, as a thinking person, to assume that he's not there just for some cookies or something. I should be free to fire in states where Stand Your Ground is in effect.
Am I crazy here, or does this make at least a certain amount of sense?
7
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:13 pm to FT
Well, at least in Florida, here's your answer:
LINK
quote:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
LINK
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:14 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
See why this is kind of a problem?
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:14 pm to FT
if he came in to do harm it would NOT be strapped on his back. Thats obvious
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:17 pm to ndtiger
Unless that's what he wants you to think.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:17 pm to FT
quote:
See why this is kind of a problem?
I'm no lawyer, but I believe "who is attacked" is the qualifying statement.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:17 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
in Florida
so you could shoot the open carry people in florida?
if you reasonably believe that the open carry people intend to cause you harm or reasonably believe they might hold up the 7/11
which prbly wouldn't be that unreasonable imo
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:18 pm to ndtiger
It could if he were just getting out of his vehicle or if he had other small arms on him.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:20 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
"who is attacked" is the qualifying statement
there is the case in jacksonville where the unarmed teen was shot on a stand your ground basis for playing loud music on the grounds that the guy who shot thought he could cause harm to him. he wasn't 'attacked' per se.
and what if the person with the gun strapped to their back, quickly reached for a wallet or went to adjust the gun causing apprehension among the others who were present
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:21 pm to FT
quote:
I should be free to fire in states where Stand Your Ground is in effect.
no
quote:
Am I crazy here, or does this make at least a certain amount of sense?
You are crazy if you think someone carrying a firearm gives you grounds to fire your weapon.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:22 pm to FT
quote:
Am I crazy here, or does this make at least a certain amount of sense?
You more scared of a rifle slung, muzzle down across a back than a hidden pocket .32 or revolver on which ole boy might have his finger on the trigger and pointed at you?
Yes, some mass shooters open carry during the early stages. But the proportion of bad folks walking around armed, both illegally in possession and illegally concealing versus a legitimate bad guy with a rifle in the first instance is so great as this doesn't even warrant a whole lot of discussion.
If I have an open carry sidearm, do you draw on me and make me declare my intentions? If there ends up being a gunfight, I think the law would decide you started it in that case.
Now, if one of these youngsters who are trying to make a statement (their hearts in the right place, but their brains are not fully engaged - comes with youth) walks in port arms, finger on the trigger and starts sweeping the area with the muzzle - if they catch a bullet from a nervous citizen - it will be a tragedy, but one the rifle carrier could have avoided.
Did we just straight up collectively lose our common sense as a country in the '70s and '80s? Am I partially responsible for that?
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:22 pm to petar
quote:
there is the case in jacksonville where the unarmed teen was shot on a stand your ground basis for playing loud music on the grounds that the guy who shot thought he could cause harm to him. he wasn't 'attacked' per se.
Can you point me to this case? Was he found innocent?
I cannot help but assume that there is more to the story than a guy shot a teen because the teen was playing loud music and got off on stand your ground.
This post was edited on 6/19/14 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:22 pm to FT
Isn't pulling your gun on someone a crime?
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:23 pm to UGATiger26
quote:Is a huge qualifier to the law, but the letter of the law isn't necessarily paramount here in terms of what a reasonable response or concern would be.
and who is attacked
I would have serious reason to be concerned. If you were with your kids and this happened, it'd be reasonable (at least in my view) to act quickly to ensure that no one was harmed.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:26 pm to FT
quote:
I would have serious reason to be concerned. If you were with your kids and this happened, it'd be reasonable (at least in my view) to act quickly to ensure that no one was harmed.
Assuming a perfect trial with perfect information of what happened, you'd be convicted.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:26 pm to FT
People who say they are open carrying long guns "for defense" are full of shite. I have no problem with open carrying pistols but open carrying long guns makes the gun-owning population look bad. These guys think they're displaying their rights but they are really intimidating innocent people.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:28 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:I agree, but if I'm with my nephew or even by myself, am I not going to be reasonably concerned? I would be. I think just about anyone would be.
Yes, some mass shooters open carry during the early stages. But the proportion of bad folks walking around armed, both illegally in possession and illegally concealing versus a legitimate bad guy with a rifle in the first instance is so great as this doesn't even warrant a whole lot of discussion.
It's this kind of situation that sucks. I like the gun laws in the US. I don't like this kind of thing.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:30 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Attacked how? There's lots of ways to attack people. I can shoot someone dead because he calls my momma a bad name?
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:30 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
People who say they are open carrying long guns "for defense" are full of shite. I have no problem with open carrying pistols but open carrying long guns makes the gun-owning population look bad. These guys think they're displaying their rights but they are really intimidating innocent people.
Agreed. Like was already mentioned, these guys' hearts are in the right place, but they're acting like idiots.
Yes, they may have the legal right to do it, but we have the legal right to do lots of things that we choose not to because we'd just look like jackasses.
Open carrying rifles is not fighting to protect gun rights. If anything, it hurts the cause.
Posted on 6/19/14 at 12:30 pm to moneyg
quote:Would this concern you much if you'd drawn your weapon and fired out of concern for your family and the well-being of others?
Assuming a perfect trial with perfect information of what happened, you'd be convicted.
I have a hard time thinking I'd be terribly upset. I understand the law and why it's written the way it is, but this seems like a grey area.
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