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Is the concept of the billable hour hurting the legal system?
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:42 pm
It seems to me that quantifying value based on the amount of time spent creates the perverse incentive to "sand bag", i.e. to take as much time as possible to complete a given task rather than the least amount of time. In the legal system, this has led to an explosion of discovery documents and useless motions designed to slow down litigation and increase billable hours for defense firms, which typically have far larger budgets than plaintiffs (the inverse is true in criminal law).
1. Should we move away from using the billable hour as the basis for quantifying the value of legal services?
2. If so, what should replace it?
3. Is the entire concept of paying workers by the hour something that should be reformed?
I'd like to hear the board's thoughts.
1. Should we move away from using the billable hour as the basis for quantifying the value of legal services?
2. If so, what should replace it?
3. Is the entire concept of paying workers by the hour something that should be reformed?
I'd like to hear the board's thoughts.
21
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:43 pm to kingbob
quote:
Should we move away
Do you have a recommendation on how to do that through capitalistic means?
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:43 pm to kingbob
Being lying, scum sucking, douchebags who manipulate the law to benefit themselves while screwing over the rest of humanity is what hurts the legal profession.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:44 pm to kingbob
quote:
the billable hour
How would you standardized legal services? Most if it is very customized.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:44 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
someone lost their divorce hearing. 
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:44 pm to kingbob
Absolutely, flat fees and contingency are where it's at.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:44 pm to kingbob
While I haven't required many legal services (personally or professionally), I've chosen to only work with attorneys that were fee based and not billable hourly.
My father is a CPA and when he went solo-practice he transitioned to a fee for service based billing system and his clients have been pleased.
My father is a CPA and when he went solo-practice he transitioned to a fee for service based billing system and his clients have been pleased.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:45 pm to Swoopin
quote:
Do you have a recommendation on how to do that through capitalistic means?
Lawyers who provide package prices rather than billable hour fees might get some business. I've heard some advertising here in St. Louis around that idea, but I have limited knowledge of what that looks like in practice.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:46 pm to kingbob
I let the defense attorneys I work with bill the file a bit. They've got mouths to feed, too. Besides, those 2 hours they billed for the depo will be chopped to .75 hours after the billing review goons adjust the bill.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:46 pm to Swoopin
quote:
Do you have a recommendation on how to do that through capitalistic means?
I'm not speaking of government action, more in hypotheticals. I'm taking a 30,000ft view in this thread.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:47 pm to kingbob
Contingency guy here, I like making money in chunks.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:47 pm to member12
quote:Seems am odd thing to standardize.
How would you standardized legal services? Most if it is very customized.
Kind of like standardizing blow job value
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:47 pm to kingbob
quote:
1. Should we move away from using the billable hour as the basis for quantifying the value of legal services?
there are so many "old school" lawyers who basically run our bar association and higher courts that this will never happen
they do everything they can to punish lawyers who don't do the "billing" method. they feel it's "below" the job
quote:
3. Is the entire concept of paying workers by the hour something that should be reformed?
that is an interesting discussion. i'll have to ponder
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:48 pm to kingbob
quote:
1. Should we move away from using the billable hour as the basis for quantifying the value of legal services?
As an engineer I love lump sum, from both sides. If I'm a PM and I'm hiring engineering I like lump sum because I can get a certain delivered scope of work for a set price. If I'm the engineer being hired I like lump sum because 95% of the time I can deliver the scope of work in less time than allocated for the job.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:49 pm to Lakeboy7
Ambulance chaser...that explains your lack of morals and affinity for the left.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:53 pm to kingbob
Legal Reform is absolutely necessary.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
3. Is the entire concept of paying workers by the hour something that should be reformed?
that is an interesting discussion. i'll have to ponder
I raise this because when I was in school, I always brought a book with me. I would finish my work faster than most of my peers, and then read my book until it was time to move on to the next thing the teacher allowed us to work on. I always thought it was pointless to have to sit and just wait, accomplishing nothing, when I had finished all of my work.
The same was true in the private sector. I always saw people sand-bagging on the job. They were mandated to be at work for 10-12 hours a day, but were capable of finishing their tasks in 6, and spent the rest of the time just trying to look busy. It was disgusting viewing all of this innefficiency. If they can do the job in 6, they should do the job in 6, and then go home, but they can't do that, because they need the extra hours to make enough money to get by. So, if we're paying all of these employees extra just to do nothing because they can't afford the drop in pay and we don't want to lose them, why are we basing how much workers are paid on the hours they are at work?
Is that just the easiest metric to use? Is it simply to subjective to find an alternative method? Is a straight up salary a liability because they get paid the same no matter what as long as they don't get fired?
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:55 pm to kingbob
quote:
I raise this because when I was in school, I always brought a book with me. I would finish my work faster than most of my peers, and then read my book until it was time to move on to the next thing the teacher allowed us to work on. I always thought it was pointless to have to sit and just wait, accomplishing nothing, when I had finished all of my work.
oh in the rare cases in my past that i did bill hourly, this was a huge problem. hourly billing incentivizes inefficiency to the highest degree. since i always did things super efficiently, i was "punished" when i should have been rewarded
Posted on 3/14/17 at 12:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
oh in the rare cases in my past that i did bill hourly, this was a huge problem. hourly billing incentivizes inefficiency to the highest degree. since i always did things super efficiently, i was "punished" when i should have been rewarded
So much this.
Posted on 3/14/17 at 1:04 pm to kingbob
Those billing review firms I mentioned are an attempt at addressing that perverse incentive to slack.
It sucks for the attorneys doing the work and trying to hit their monthly billables, but industry and insurance companies have embraced the leverage they have over the defense firms and have started to mandate the use of the billable review firms.
We just hired an associate who left a defense firm for that exact reason. Prolly took a pay cut to do so but quality of life was more important to him.
It sucks for the attorneys doing the work and trying to hit their monthly billables, but industry and insurance companies have embraced the leverage they have over the defense firms and have started to mandate the use of the billable review firms.
We just hired an associate who left a defense firm for that exact reason. Prolly took a pay cut to do so but quality of life was more important to him.
This post was edited on 3/14/17 at 1:07 pm
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