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Interesting podcast (Freakanomics) about how Germany's economy rose
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:46 pm
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:46 pm
LINK
some random points
1. Germany is pretty unique in that it segregates its country without having a single dominant city. it's a decentralized economic structure.
2. Germany reshaped itself with the Hartz reforms
3. German manufacturing has a lot of middle-sized companies who excel in specific niches
4. German unions are much more realistic and rational than Anglo/American unions. We should not compare our unions to their unions.
5. Germany invests in training its workforce. This is something that is likely to never work in the US as an institution.
6. As expected, with so much state support, innovation suffers and the "old guard" is protected
7. The US culture/economy is simply different than the German culture/economy
some random points
1. Germany is pretty unique in that it segregates its country without having a single dominant city. it's a decentralized economic structure.
quote:
To this day, Frankfurt has the biggest airport in Germany, with more than 60 million passengers a year. Berlin, while still easily the biggest city in Germany, has only the fourth- and seventh-busiest airports, which combined have only about half the traffic of Frankfurt.
quote:
STURM: Germany is the only European country where the country’s main air hub is not in the largest city. You can see the unusualness of the German situation. If [the] division hadn’t happened, it would be very difficult to believe that Germany’s main air hub today wouldn’t be in Berlin.
2. Germany reshaped itself with the Hartz reforms
quote:
But just 15 years ago, things were looking pretty grim. The country was struggling to reunify after the Cold War; adopting the euro had its downsides, including a flight of German capital from Germany; and unemployment was at nearly 12 percent.
quote:
SUEDEKUM: You can think of that period from ‘93 ‘til 2003 as a decade of stagnation. That was the mood that predated the Hartz reforms in 2003.
quote:
Among other changes, the Hartz reforms lowered government assistance to the poor and unemployed; made it easier for firms to fire employees; and encouraged more part-time, low-wage, non-union jobs. As you can imagine, such reforms did not make Schröder universally beloved.
3. German manufacturing has a lot of middle-sized companies who excel in specific niches
quote:
MARIN: The interesting thing is that, normally, when you have small and medium enterprises, they are not international. The major thing about the Mittelstand in Germany is that they are very international. I’m talking here about the export superstars.
SUEDEKUM: You have all these so-called “Hidden Champions” in Germany. These are medium-sized firms often located somewhere in the countryside. But they are the world market leader for some very specific niche product where they offer the highest quality.
4. German unions are much more realistic and rational than Anglo/American unions. We should not compare our unions to their unions.
quote:
I always used that as a metaphor for businesses. The customers pour in the Tender Vittles and in the U.S., when you had a union, they would fight and spill the whole bowl of Tender Vittles. In the end, no one could eat anymore. I looked at U.A.W. “It’s insane, they’re going to kill their company.” Sure enough, they damn near did. General Motors was almost bankrupt. In Germany, the unions have representatives on the board of the company. Yes, they say, “The first thing” — that this bowl of Tender Vittles — “we have to make sure that the bowl is there. We can fight all we want, but don’t spill the bowl.” You don’t destroy your company. That was not the attitude of Anglo-Saxon unions, either in England or the U.S.
quote:
Culturally, there is a sense [that] you have to be flexible when circumstances change, when new challenges arise. This is deeply embedded in the German approach of doing things.
quote:
It’s part of the culture. You try to come to a common goal. This has a high value. Germany is a stakeholder economy in that sense. Yeah? It’s not a shareholder economy, it’s a stakeholder economy.
5. Germany invests in training its workforce. This is something that is likely to never work in the US as an institution.
quote:
SUEDEKUM: The system of apprenticeship is one of the biggest advantages that Germany has, especially for manufacturing.
ZETTELMEYER: The apprenticeship system ensures a flow of relatively talented young people into industry that might not even consider industry in other countries.
SUEDEKUM: We’re talking about kids who don’t go to college. In many other countries, they would just pick up a job somewhere and start working and receive on-the-job training for one firm, right? In Germany, you go through this system of vocational training. Half of the week you work for one employer and the other half of the week you go to school and receive some general training. The biggest advantage of that is that the workers acquire something that we economists call not just firm-specific, but industry-specific or occupation-specific human capital.
That helps you to adapt when your employer goes broke and you just need to find a new job. Then, you fare much better.
6. As expected, with so much state support, innovation suffers and the "old guard" is protected
quote:
The German industry is very much geared towards helping incumbents do well. The unions are supportive. The state is there to lend you a hand. We have a very generous supply of credit from specialized banking segments that specifically lend it to Mittlestand companies. We have lots of barriers to labor mobility in Germany, so there are very high hiring and firing costs. The typical churning that you get in an economy is lower and that’s arguably a good thing in the sense that we have good companies that make good products and have good jobs that are preserved. But it also has a bad side and that bad side is simply not visible, which is we are preventing the growth of impressive companies in new sectors. It’s not a very dynamic economy.
quote:
You don’t have these big high-tech firms like Google, Facebook, Amazon, and so on. Germany doesn’t have that. There are some, but very few.
7. The US culture/economy is simply different than the German culture/economy
quote:
A very important reason why traditional manufacturing has declined in the U.S. — which is completely under-emphasized, particularly by the Trump administration — is domestic competition; extremely dynamic growth in new sectors in the United States, particularly, of course, the computer industry and the software industry, the platforms, the I.T. giants. This growth sucks away labor and makes it harder for traditional companies to compete.
This has nothing to do with globalization. This has something to do with technical change, but it has a lot to do just with the general dynamism of the U.S. economy. One of the reasons why the manufacturing share is high in Germany is because the German industry lacks this dynamism. The U.S. has traditionally been a much more dynamic economy. The U.S. has a very good model and what the U.S. should focus on is to maintain and improve its model, not about copying the German one.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:54 pm to SlowFlowPro
I listened to it on Sunday...it was a very interesting perspective. I thought the other interesting point that was discussed centered around the country's rebuilding post WW2 and reunification after the fall of East Germany.
They also have a sense of "nationalism" in that their surplus is primarily attributed to the significant number of exports, BUT the high number of German-made goods purchased by Germans, as well.
Also, the stat that GER accounts for 1% of the world's mfg, but 10% of the global exports
They also have a sense of "nationalism" in that their surplus is primarily attributed to the significant number of exports, BUT the high number of German-made goods purchased by Germans, as well.
Also, the stat that GER accounts for 1% of the world's mfg, but 10% of the global exports
Posted on 10/17/17 at 1:59 pm to Golfer
yeah the German culture is real
even in poker. when a new game gets popular, the Germans get together, work together in solving it, and then show up and dominate
German precision exists in more than just their cars
even in poker. when a new game gets popular, the Germans get together, work together in solving it, and then show up and dominate
German precision exists in more than just their cars
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:02 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the Germans get together, work together in solving it
This is key in those union negotiations. The company and the union are actually working together, instead of in conflict.
It also backfires since they will protect themselves and pursue the "win at all costs" mindset...see VW scandal.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:05 pm to SlowFlowPro
Listened to it and found myself thinking "The germans managed to get unions right"
Would never happen here though. Unions with a seat on the company board would do the same self destruction they do now. The culture is too thick.
Would need a complete collapse for a change in mindset.
I notice you left off the part at the beginning where they mention 40% of US manufacturing job loss is directly from 'free' trade with China.
Would never happen here though. Unions with a seat on the company board would do the same self destruction they do now. The culture is too thick.
Would need a complete collapse for a change in mindset.
I notice you left off the part at the beginning where they mention 40% of US manufacturing job loss is directly from 'free' trade with China.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
yeah the German culture is real even in poker. when a new game gets popular, the Germans get together, work together in solving it, and then show up and dominate German precision exists in more than just their cars
Germans are higher IQ people than average. Their culture values hard work and discipline.
Those are the main things that make Germany economically successsful. "Culture" doesn't just drop out of the sky. It arises from the people.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
So homogeneous, nationalistic nations work better?
Who knew?
Who knew?
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:10 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
Would never happen here though.
in everyone's defense, they fully admit that
but then again, with their setup of keeping the status quo, maybe that's a bad thing. what i mean is that it is probably much more effective and efficient, as a union, to not be so cut throat in negotiations when your company is more likely to stay afloat due to competition. in the US, we don't have the same protectionism so that spills over into our union-company dynamics
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:12 pm to Numberwang
quote:
Germans are higher IQ people than average. Their culture values hard work and discipline.
it's similar to Scandinavian culture. their concept of "working hard" is a lot different than what most Americans would expect
both also have a lower standard of living in the middle/upper-middle class than we do here.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:29 pm to SlowFlowPro
I found the airport one interesting, but the largest airport in the US isn't in it's largest city either. Atlanta's airport services over 11 million more passengers per year than the next largest airport (50 mil @ ATL vs 39 mil @ LAX in 2016). It takes combining all 3 airports in the largest metropolis (New York metro) to eclipse the passenger count of Hartsfield (29 mil @ JFK + 14 mil @ LGA + 19 mil @ EWR = 62 mil total).
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:31 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
You have all these so-called “Hidden Champions” in Germany. These are medium-sized firms often located somewhere in the countryside. But they are the world market leader for some very specific niche product where they offer the highest quality.
My cousin works for a company that fits this description. I think they only make some special kind of flooring, but they make an absolute shitload of it.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:36 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
So homogeneous, nationalistic nations work better?
that, and lots of turkish "guest workers".
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:43 pm to SlowFlowPro
Just don’t believe a German if you hear one claim that everyone in Germany is fluent in English. They do well for sure but it’s nothing like Scandinavian countries where practically everyone speaks English proficiently.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:45 pm to Bunsbert Montcroff
lots of countries in Europe are homogeneous and are well behind Germany, regardless
their cultural homogeneity is just "better" in this respect
their cultural homogeneity is just "better" in this respect
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Germany invests in training its workforce. This is something that is likely to never work in the US as an institution.
Sigh, its why nobody is coming to Louisiana, it really doesnt matter what type of company we are not prepared to supply skilled or even trainable workers.
I just read what you highlighted but notice the takeoff of the German economy roughly coincided with absorbing an incredibly eager and cheap work force from East Germany.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 2:57 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:
Sigh, its why nobody is coming to Louisiana, it really doesnt matter what type of company we are not prepared to supply skilled or even trainable workers.
you want to force bad students out of possibly going to college and give them that carrot as an incentive?
that would not be close to legal in the US today, especially in a state like LA
Posted on 10/17/17 at 3:10 pm to Lakeboy7
quote:
Sigh, its why nobody is coming to Louisiana, it really doesnt matter what type of company we are not prepared to supply skilled or even trainable workers.
Yeah, we really have to revamp our school systems and tell some people that they're not college material.
Training in the trades needs to be something that begins in 10th grade. The supply of skilled labor in the state is very limited.
Posted on 10/17/17 at 3:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
Was a great episode listened to it last Friday. One of my favs they have put out. I liked all the info they gave about the Germany economy but thought it was intellectually dishonest how they tried to compare it to the US without discussing all of the extraneous variables that make the 2 so different. Great ep though highly recommend it.
LINK /
LINK /
Posted on 10/17/17 at 3:19 pm to BlackPawnMartyr
quote:
but thought it was intellectually dishonest how they tried to compare it to the US without discussing all of the extraneous variables that make the 2 so different
wait what?
they specifically described why German policies wouldn't work in the US and how the US needs to just do its system better
Posted on 10/17/17 at 3:29 pm to SlowFlowPro
No they didnt. They didnt go into the differences enough and made it sound like Germany was doing all of these great things that we could just adopt here which would never work with our heterogeneous population, nation size, and political system. I did like that they discussed reducing social welfare as a benefit to kick start peoples motivations for success though on the eastern commie side.
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