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Message
re: If Obama gives executive amnesty to 5 million illegals, do you want impeachment?
Posted on 7/29/14 at 12:58 pm to Navytiger74
Posted on 7/29/14 at 12:58 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
If the House begins to view impeachment as a political tool, we could be in for a wild ride. It's only happened twice in history for a reason.
if he grants amnesty to 5 million people...while simultaneously abdicating his oath of office, it isnt a "tool", it is a remedy for lawless behavior.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 1:01 pm to goldennugget
Impeachment isn't enough, I want removal.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 1:05 pm to CptBengal
quote:
if he grants amnesty to 5 million people...
Very arguably within the purview of his constitutional authority--though obviously an extraordinary exercise of power.
quote:
while simultaneously abdicating his oath of office
There is an argument here, but it could technically be applied to any president who hasn't diligently gone after illegal immigration (all of them). And Lincoln's issuing of a blanket amnesty to all but a few Confederate leaders, coupled with Carter's amnesty to all civilians who failed to register for selective service and/or otherwise dodged the draft serve as precedents.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 1:16 pm to Navytiger74
quote:In both of those cases the amnesty was for former(confederates seceded) and current American citizens, not illegals. I don't think he can or will grant amnesty without legislation, but he will certainly threaten it.
And Lincoln's issuing of a blanket amnesty to all but a few Confederate leaders, coupled with Carter's amnesty to all civilians who failed to register for selective service and/or otherwise dodged the draft serve as precedents.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 1:52 pm to dante
quote:
In both of those cases the amnesty was for former(confederates seceded) and current American citizens, not illegals. I don't think he can or will grant amnesty without legislation, but he will certainly threaten it.
The constitution doesn't limit the president's powers of pardon against crimes against the Untied States to citizens.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 5:39 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
...granting a general amnesty could fall under Article II powers to grant reprieves and pardons for crimes against the United States--in this case illegal entry and/or evasion of authorities, taxes, etc (or whatever the applicable statutes are).
quote:
Regarding the legal nature of warrants of pardon and their delivery and acceptance, it appears that pardons must be physically delivered before they become legally effective.
In United States v. Wilson, Chief Justice Marshall, writing for the Court, stated: “A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual, on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed. It is the private, though official act of the executive magistrate, delivered to the individual for whose benefit it is intended...”
The Court further declared:
“A pardon is a deed, to the validity of which delivery is essential, and delivery is not complete, without acceptance.”
Chief Justice Marshall went on to explain that a warrant of pardon must be pleaded like any other private instrument before any court may take judicial notice thereof.
This standard was reiterated in Burdick v. UnitedStates, where the Court stressed that the contention that pardons have automatic effect by their “mere issue” was rejected in Wilson “with particularity and emphasis.” The Court further stressed in Burdick that a pardon may be refused, since its acceptance may involve “consequences of even greater disgrace than those from which it purports to relieve.”
LINK
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If this is at all accurate, wouldn't the formal process be so unwieldy and fraught with possibilities of corruption sufficient to dissuade even this President from taking that path? I also wonder if a Presidential pardon would extend to state laws violated which normally could be pardoned by the state's governor?
I suppose no one would be surprised if President Obama decides to unilaterally abridge, circumvent or disregard the Constitution he took a solemn oath to preserve, protect and defend. If he did so on the scale we are talking about here, then wouldn't impeachment and removal be on the table?
quote:
I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 5:54 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
Is there anything in the Constitution about illegal immigration?
I am not trying to flame but can someone reference where the President would actually break the Constitution by allowing amnesty? Besides the point he doesn't have the power?
I am not trying to flame but can someone reference where the President would actually break the Constitution by allowing amnesty? Besides the point he doesn't have the power?
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:11 pm to TOKEN
It's no surprise Obomba has such a high affinity for the "undocumented workers"
after all, he is one.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:17 pm to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
Regarding the legal nature of warrants of pardon and their delivery and acceptance, it appears that pardons must be physically delivered before they become legally effective. In United States v. Wilson, Chief Justice Marshall, writing for the Court, stated: “A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual, on whom it is bestowed, from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed. It is the private, though official act of the executive magistrate, delivered to the individual for whose benefit it is intended...” The Court further declared: “A pardon is a deed, to the validity of which delivery is essential, and delivery is not complete, without acceptance.” Chief Justice Marshall went on to explain that a warrant of pardon must be pleaded like any other private instrument before any court may take judicial notice thereof. This standard was reiterated in Burdick v. UnitedStates, where the Court stressed that the contention that pardons have automatic effect by their “mere issue” was rejected in Wilson “with particularity and emphasis.” The Court further stressed in Burdick that a pardon may be refused, since its acceptance may involve “consequences of even greater disgrace than those from which it purports to relieve.”
Honestly a good post. I won't have time to dig tonight, but I will propose that precedent and the nature of presidential authority suggests that an unconditional amnesty to certain groups of federal lawbreakers is probably pretty firmly within the president's authority barring some extraordinary circumstance.
quote:
I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
I would argue that he has, without reasonable question, violated that oath if any strict definition is applied. But impeachment proceedings will, if proper, consider precedent. It gets trickier when you place his predecessors on the table.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:23 pm to goldennugget
If Obama gives executive amnesty to 5 million illegal immigrants, then he will not be taking care that the laws be faithfully executed. To the contrary, his actions will be designed to go against the faithful execution of the laws. That is certainly reasonable grounds for impeachment.
However, let's just drop this whole discussion about impeachment. There is no way that Obama will be removed from office. The U.S. House may be able to impeach--all it takes is a simple majority vote, and the Republicans do control a majority of the House and will do so after the upcoming elections.
However, all that is is the equivalent of an indictment. There is no chance that the U.S. Senate will vote to remove the president from office. Even if the Republicans pick up enough seats in the midterm to have 52 or 53 seats, there will still be more than enough Democrats who would never vote to impeach under any circumstances and who would block this. Impeachment is fun to think about and discuss, but in the end the only basis for removing the president from office is to get two-thirds of the Senate to go along. That will NEVER happen.
However, let's just drop this whole discussion about impeachment. There is no way that Obama will be removed from office. The U.S. House may be able to impeach--all it takes is a simple majority vote, and the Republicans do control a majority of the House and will do so after the upcoming elections.
However, all that is is the equivalent of an indictment. There is no chance that the U.S. Senate will vote to remove the president from office. Even if the Republicans pick up enough seats in the midterm to have 52 or 53 seats, there will still be more than enough Democrats who would never vote to impeach under any circumstances and who would block this. Impeachment is fun to think about and discuss, but in the end the only basis for removing the president from office is to get two-thirds of the Senate to go along. That will NEVER happen.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:26 pm to lsuprof
quote:
However, all that is is the equivalent of an indictment. There is no chance that the U.S. Senate will vote to remove the president from office. Even if the Republicans pick up enough seats in the midterm to have 52 or 53 seats, there will still be more than enough Democrats who would never vote to impeach under any circumstances and who would block this. Impeachment is fun to think about and discuss, but in the end the only basis for removing the president from office is to get two-thirds of the Senate to go along. That will NEVER happen.
I'll do you one better. A quarter of GOP Senators (or more) won't vote for it. The case is weak.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:26 pm to Navytiger74
Reagan and Bush were for amnesty.
Under Reagan congress wrote the law though. This is more of a SCOTUS case than anything. Impeachment plays right into his hands IMO.
Under Reagan congress wrote the law though. This is more of a SCOTUS case than anything. Impeachment plays right into his hands IMO.
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:42 pm to goldennugget
goldennugget, when did you become a Democrat?
Its only the Democrats that are talking about impeachment now. Didn't you get the talking points memo?
Its only the Democrats that are talking about impeachment now. Didn't you get the talking points memo?
Posted on 7/29/14 at 11:36 pm to Navytiger74
quote:Exactly so, and, the process drawn out by two years of political wrangling will yield little except the exercise moot.
It gets trickier when you place his predecessors on the table.
We keep saying year after year the Republic is robust and the Constitution resilient but those sentiments are not so comforting as they once were. Things have deteriorated rather quickly in two short years.
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