- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: History Debate: Ulysses S. Grant vs. Robert E. Lee
Posted on 3/29/14 at 7:38 pm to bencoleman
Posted on 3/29/14 at 7:38 pm to bencoleman
quote:
Again you fail. Hannibal and Lee were fighting two different types of war. You are not very good at this are you?
No...you're not very good at this. At no point in your OP did you state or imply any of the variables you have inserted into your last two two posts.
1
Posted on 3/29/14 at 7:47 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
No...you're not very good at this. At no point in your OP did you state or imply any of the variables you have inserted into your last two two posts.
You are the one that made the comparison. I am simply pointing out that they are piss poor comparisons. Hell the more you argue the better Lee looks.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:06 pm to bencoleman
quote:
How about the Iraqi insurgency, Hannibal and his legions, Washington and his colonials, William Wallace and his Scottish rebellion, and the French, Dutch, and Polish resistances in World War II?
Uh huh. Difference between set battles and guerilla warfare. That is why the Viet Minh are studies so much. One of the few guerilla forces to make a successful transition to a full scale army.
There were similarities between Hannibal and Lee. Tactical geniuses. Problem was what they had over the other side in terms of ability they lost in logistics and manpower. The Romans could throw men at Hannibal. Most of Hannibal's army ceased to be Carthaginian and was instead Gallic.
1. Hannibal did not intend to conquer Rome. Didn't have the army or technology for it as the Romans did. He sought to weaken Rome, cut it down to size. Rome fought total war against him. WHen Rome got through with that war, Carthage had little left.
2. Hannibal won his share of victories. Cannae was one of the worst defeats for the Romans. Hannibal's Austerlitz and he was unable to capitalize on it.
3. Logistics continued to work against Hannibal. Sound familiar? Could not resupply himself. Same problem the South had. Blockade hurt the South. Hannibal was cut off from resupply. His brother led a huge army to reinforce him only to be destroyed by the Romans.
4. Able Roman commanders rose to the top to fight Hannibal. PRoblem Lee and Hannibal faced, longer the wars went on, the more likely natural selection took place and better commanders faced him as the incompetent ones were weeded out. Also the longer the war went on, the more the enemy learned Hannibal's or Lee's tactics and how they thought.
This post was edited on 3/29/14 at 8:13 pm
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:11 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
One of the few guerilla forces to make a successful transition to a full scale army.
Well they were fighting the ARVN.......
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:19 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
All of this is flawed. Lee had 1 bad battle - Gettysburg. Grant had 1 good battle, Vicksburg. The rest of it was physics and generalship cannot overcome physics.
One of the better post I have read here.
Well done sir!
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:21 pm to RollTide1987
Lee without Jackson wasn't nearly as effective.
He destroyed his army at Gettysburg.
He destroyed his army at Gettysburg.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:22 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
3. Logistics continued to work against Hannibal. Sound familiar?
While both had logistical problems. Lee had the added problem of defending territory.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:26 pm to goatmilker
so the guy who's the better tactician lost the war and most battles, while the guy who's the better manager and collector of resources won the war and most battles ...
interesting ...
interesting ...
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:38 pm to tiderider
numbers are numbers. Keep in mind the inferior generals tend to get replaced or killed off. At Cannae, both consuls were killed. Lincoln kept replacing generals. Romans learned their lesson and didn't face Hannibal too many times in open battle after that one. Where do you think the name Fabian came from?
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:41 pm to tiderider
Grant had his moments as a successful tactician and several failures as well.
They didn't go head to head from the get go.
So Impossible to say much further than they were both fine Generals.
They didn't go head to head from the get go.
So Impossible to say much further than they were both fine Generals.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:47 pm to goatmilker
quote:
So Impossible to say much further than they were both fine Generals.
I agree although I think Lee was the better of the two. I admire Grant.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:53 pm to bencoleman
quote:
While both had logistical problems. Lee had the added problem of defending territory.
Defending territory is much easier than attacking it. Because after you take land, you have the added problem of holding onto it.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 8:59 pm to goatmilker
quote:
They didn't go head to head from the get go.
Very good point.
How would they have fared against each other early on?
Posted on 3/29/14 at 9:08 pm to weagle99
Wow.
I think that is a question for the ages.
No doubt Grant needed more time to learn the arts than Lee did.
The North had zealots in arms to begin the war with sh!t for leadership.
When the leadership got on a level with the South the avg. recruit was for sh!t.
I think that is a question for the ages.
No doubt Grant needed more time to learn the arts than Lee did.
The North had zealots in arms to begin the war with sh!t for leadership.
When the leadership got on a level with the South the avg. recruit was for sh!t.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 9:24 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Defending territory is much easier than attacking it
You don't even believe that. If I am attacking I can use a scorched earth policy. If I am dedending I am trying to protect and hold.
So again you fail.
A reasonable person would think that you would get tired of being wrong, but keep on if you must and I will keep pointing out your failures.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 9:34 pm to bencoleman
quote:
Hell the more you argue the better Lee looks.
Lee's Wins and Losses (chronological order)
Oak Grove - Tie
Beaver Dame Creek - Loss
Gaines's Mill - Win
Malvern Hill - Loss
Second Bull Run - Win
South Mountain - Loss
Antietam - Loss
Fredericksburg - Win
Chancellorsville - Win
Salem Church - Win
Gettysburg - Loss
Williamsport - Tie
Bristoe Station - Loss
2nd Rappahannock Station - Loss
Wilderness - Tie
Spotsylvania - Tie
North Anna - Tie
Totopotomoy Creek - Tie
Cold Harbor - Win
1st Petersburg - Win
2nd Petersburg - Win
Crater - Win
2nd Deep Bottom - Win
Darbytown & New Market Roads - Loss
Fort Stedman - Loss
White Oak Road - Loss
Five Forks - Loss
3rd Petersburg - Loss
Rice's Station - Loss
Sayler's Creek - Loss
Appomattox Court House - Loss
Final Record: 10 wins, 14 losses, 6 ties
Ulysses S. Grant Wins & Losses
Belmont - Win
Fort Henry - Win
Fort Donelson - Win
Shiloh - Win
Iuka - Win
2nd Corinth - Win
Port Gibson - Win
Jackson - Win
Champion Hill - Win
Vicksburg - Win
Chattanooga - Win
Wilderness - Tie
Spotsylvania - Tie
North Anna - Tie
Totopotomoy Creek - Tie
Cold Harbor - Loss
1st Petersburg - Loss
2nd Petersburg - Loss
Crater - Loss
Fort Stedman - Win
White Oak Road - Win
Five Forks - Win
3rd Petersburg - Win
Sayler's Creek - Win
Appomattox Court House - Win
Final Record: 17 wins, 4 losses, 4 ties
Grant wins.
This post was edited on 3/29/14 at 9:35 pm
Posted on 3/29/14 at 9:44 pm to bencoleman
quote:
You don't even believe that. If I am attacking I can use a scorched earth policy. If I am dedending I am trying to protect and hold.
"To preserve is easier than to acquire" - On War by Carl von Clausewitz; Book VI, Chapter 1
Posted on 3/29/14 at 9:54 pm to RollTide1987
Nice to see two guys from P'cola in a CW thread 
Posted on 3/29/14 at 10:02 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
"To preserve is easier than to acquire
In a normal circumstance this would be true. unfortunately that was not the case here. Lee lacked the resources to keep them out. This is where his brilliance comes in. Knowing the situation you have to stand in awe at Lee's accomplishments.
Posted on 3/29/14 at 10:06 pm to RollTide1987
Do you have an obsession with the North? Just curious.
Page 4 of 17
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News