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History Debate: Ulysses S. Grant vs. Robert E. Lee

Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:18 pm
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64872 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:18 pm
We are approaching the 150th anniversary of their epic clash in Virginia in the spring of 1864. To honor the occasion, I present an essay which introduces a new line of thinking in the long-held belief that Robert E. Lee was the better general:

quote:

Was Ulysses S. Grant a butcher? Was Robert E. Lee the Civil War’s best general? The answer to both questions is a resounding no.

The respective casualty figures of these two generals contradict the myth about who, if either, was a butcher. For the entire war, Grant incurred about 154,000 casualties (killed, wounded, missing, captured) while imposing about 191,000 casualties on his foes. Lee suffered about 209,000 casualties while imposing about 240,000 casualties on his opponents.

Lee, who should have been fighting defensively and preserving his precious manpower, instead exceeded Grant’s understandable aggressiveness and incurred 55,000 more casualties than Grant.



quote:

Grant, a national general, was the most successful Union or Confederate general of the war. He drove the Confederates from the Mississippi Valley, the primary western theater of the war, through a series of brilliant battles and campaigns — from the early capture of Forts Henry and Donelson through the unparalleled Vicksburg campaign.

Then it took him a mere month to save a Union army trapped in Chattanooga and drive the Rebels there back into Georgia — with a giant assist from Lee (more on that later).

Finally, Grant was brought to the East to face Lee’s army, which he defeated within a year to effectively bring the war to a close.

Although Lee has been praised for his offensives against the Union Army of the Potomac, he was carrying out an aggressive strategy with aggressive tactics that were inconsistent with what should have been a Confederate grand defensive strategy.

The Union, not the Confederacy, had the burden of winning the war, and the South, outnumbered about 4-to-1 in white men of fighting age, had a severe manpower shortage.

Nevertheless, Lee acted as though he were a Union general and attacked again and again as though his side had the burden of winning and also had an unlimited supply of soldiers.



quote:

By the end of 1862, therefore, both Lee and Grant had won significant victories, but the results of those victories were quite different. Grant’s victories greatly expanded Union control in western Kentucky and Tennessee, as well as northern Mississippi. Grant’s successes had been achieved with a little over 20,000 casualties while he imposed more than 35,000 casualties on his opponents.

Meanwhile, Lee’s victories had foiled Union strategic offensives, but his embarrassing Maryland campaign had lost the possibility of European intervention and nearly cost Lee his army.

Lee’s constant demand for reinforcements and his 50,000 casualties, incurred during the Maryland campaign, had drained other areas of the South of many of their soldiers. That drainage made Grant’s and other western generals’ jobs easier.



LINK
Posted by Porky
Member since Aug 2008
19101 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:28 pm to
Grant was a decent general but he also had the better equipped and funded army. Wasn't Grant a drunk? I don't know if it's true but I had some history teachers that claimed he was almost always messed up to the point of not being able to find his own butt. But evidently he performed fairly well in that condition.
This post was edited on 3/29/14 at 2:37 pm
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89445 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:30 pm to
History board... (oh, wait, that's right - we don't have one).

All of this is flawed. Lee had 1 bad battle - Gettysburg. Grant had 1 good battle, Vicksburg. The rest of it was physics and generalship cannot overcome physics.

Also, Grant wasn't facing the "A" team until '64. Lee was in charge - almost from the very beginning.

Now, having said that, Lee gets a lot of credit for stuff his subordinates did - Jackson, Longstreet and Stuart, primarily. On the other side, pretty much Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan were the only real fighters the Union army had.

While it is true the CSA outclassed the USA in every tangible way (except equipment and supply) probably all the way until the end of the war, the differences in '64 and '65 were getting to be negligible. The "screening" process that combat provides allowed the better Union generals to rise to the top. As their troops became more combat hardened, the overall esprit de corps, the elan, the fighting spirit - however you want to describe it - possessed by the confederates, particularly the Army of Northern Virginia, was insufficient to overcome the massive advantages in manpower and materiel enjoyed by the North.

To put Richmond's predicament into full perspective - by war's end, Spring 1865 - there were more union troops in colored regiments serving under the Stars and Stripes, than there were confederate troops, period.

Think about that for a second.
This post was edited on 3/29/14 at 2:39 pm
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64872 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:36 pm to
quote:

Grant was a decent general but he also had the better equipped and funded army.


Lee was a horrible quartermaster. He left the details of supplying his army to Richmond and also had a very small staff which complicated things even more. Yes, it's true the North had more resources than the South, but Lee could have supplied his army much better but failed to do so due to his lack of administrative skills.

Grant on the other hand was an amazing quartermaster. He almost always made sure his troops were supplied with food, ammunition, and other material of war. He also recognized the need for a large staff and didn't let ego get in the way like Lee did with his staff.

quote:

Wasn't Grant a drunk?


Yes, he was. But it didn't take much to get Grant drunk. He was tipsy after one shot of whiskey and had slurred speech after his second.
Posted by Porky
Member since Aug 2008
19101 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:38 pm to
quote:

Yes, he was. But it didn't take much to get Grant drunk. He was tipsy after one shot of whiskey and had slurred speech after his second.


That's a sign of advanced cirrhosis.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64872 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:38 pm to
quote:

All of this is flawed. Lee had 1 bad battle - Gettysburg.


Really? So Mechanicsville, Gaines' Mill, Malvern Hill, and Antietam don't count as bad battles? From June 25, 1862 - July 1, 1862, Lee and his army fought the Union army in a series of battles now known as the Seven Days Campaign. In each of those battles, Lee either lost or fought his army to a stalemate. He took 20,000 casualties in frontal assault after frontal assault while only inflicting 10,000 casualties on the enemy.

The only reason why he won that campaign is because his opponent, George McClellan, thought Lee outnumbered him and fell back after each battle.

quote:

Grant had 1 good battle, Vicksburg.


So Fort Donelson and Chattanooga don't count for anything?
This post was edited on 3/29/14 at 2:42 pm
Posted by weagle99
Member since Nov 2011
35893 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:42 pm to
I believe had Jackson been alive Gettyburg could have ended differently. The effect of losing Jackson cannot be overstated IMO.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89445 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:48 pm to
quote:

From June 25, 1862 - July 1, 1862, Lee and his army fought the Union army in a series of battles now known as the Seven Days Campaign. In each of those battles, Lee either lost or fought his army to a stalemate. He took 20,000 casualties in frontal assault after frontal assault while only inflicting 10,000 casualties on the enemy.


Unlike many people in the South - Lee knew time was not on his side - the longer the war went on, the greater the advantages of the Union and the less of the Confederacy would be. He sought to keep the Army of the Potomac fully engaged, and, hopefully, crush it in a large battle, get between it and Washington, threatening the capital. Doing so, he thought, would force peace negotiations, which is all the South wanted to accomplish.

It was the right strategy and, but for that third day at Gettysburg, it might just have worked.

Eventually, there would have been enough blue troops to pin down the ANV, lay siege to Richmond and force a conclusion to the war, even without the losses, particularly in '63 (pretty much everything after Chancellorsville).

Gettysburg remains a puzzler and one of the few dings against Lee who is regarded as one of the GOAT generals.

Posted by weagle99
Member since Nov 2011
35893 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:49 pm to
quote:

Lee knew time was not on his side - the longer the war went on, the greater the advantages of the Union and the less of the Confederacy would be.


Well said.
Posted by ZacAttack
The Land Mass
Member since Oct 2012
6416 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:50 pm to
Jackson was a huge blow to Lee at Gettysburg.

Also, if J.E.B. Stuart hadn't been dicking around the first 2 days at Gettysburg, Lee and the South would've won.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64872 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:52 pm to
quote:

It was the right strategy and, but for that third day at Gettysburg, it might just have worked.



No. It was not the right strategy. Ironically enough, the right strategy would have been the strategy Lee took against Grant in 1864: entrench and wait. Lincoln came dangerously close to not being reelected in November due to the massive casualties being inflicted in Virginia throughout the spring and summer. If not for Sherman's capture of Atlanta in September, Lincoln most definitely would have lost to McClellan, who was running as the anti-war candidate, and the North would have sued for peace.

Lee didn't have to win the war. He just had to do what his idol George Washington did 80 or so years before, outlast his enemy. Had Lee been doing that all along instead of waiting until he had very little troops left, he might have actually won the Confederacy its independence.
This post was edited on 3/29/14 at 2:54 pm
Posted by TN Bhoy
San Antonio, TX
Member since Apr 2010
60589 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:53 pm to
I love how you claim to be an historian but are always obsessed with the GMT.
Posted by weagle99
Member since Nov 2011
35893 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:54 pm to
quote:

He just had to do what his idol George Washington did 80 or so years before, outlast his enemy.



Without hindsight, how would it have been apparent he could do that given the North's superior numbers, manufacturing base, and blockade of the South?
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64872 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

Without hindsight, how would it have been apparent he could do that given the North's superior numbers, manufacturing base, and blockade of the South?



Lee did not have the benefit of hindsight but he did have the benefit of history. A similar rebellion had been waged on the continent just 80+ years prior. Washington had given Lee the blue print for success. If you are a lightweight boxer going up against the heavyweight champion, do you run at him and challenge him directly? Or do you move him around the ring, dodging heavy blows, attacking him only when necessary, with the purpose of getting him tired?
Posted by weagle99
Member since Nov 2011
35893 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 3:01 pm to
quote:

Lee did not have the benefit of hindsight but he did have the benefit of history. A similar rebellion had been waged on the continent just 80+ years prior. Washington had given Lee the blue print for success. If you are a lightweight boxer going up against the heavyweight champion, do you run at him and challenge him directly? Or do you move him around the ring, dodging heavy blows, attacking him only when necessary, with the purpose of getting him tired?



I get what you are saying, however I think the wars are a little bit different. Britain isn't in North America.
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112334 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 3:13 pm to
So, do we have any war reinactors up in here? Just read La. Life Mag. Lots of reinactments going on in La. this Spring. Make sure you buy your wife/girlfriend a nice hoop skirt.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64872 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 3:15 pm to
quote:

Britain isn't in North America.


This may be true, but it doesn't discount the fact that Lee came closer to achieving Confederate independence in the spring of 1864, a time that he was on the strategic as well as tactical defensive, then he did at any other point of the war. Just think what he could have done in 1864 had he had all the troops he had lost during the Gettysburg, Chancellorsville, Maryland, and Seven Days campaigns.
Posted by constant cough
Lafayette
Member since Jun 2007
44788 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 3:17 pm to
quote:

Ulysses S. Grant



Fat, alcoholic, corrupt shitty president.

Also TPOS
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33224 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 3:17 pm to
quote:

Fat, alcoholic, corrupt shitty president.

Also TPOS




someone's still not over losing
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33224 posts
Posted on 3/29/14 at 3:22 pm to
quote:

Also TPOS


But Lee wasn't, right?

From the testimony of Wesley Norris, an escaped slave of Lee's that was re-captured:
quote:


we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to "lay it on well," an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.


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