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re: "God's plan" God does not save us from earthly suffering
Posted on 1/25/21 at 5:21 pm to RancherReb
Posted on 1/25/21 at 5:21 pm to RancherReb
quote:
Moses acted, David acted, Paul acted, but us praying and then getting behind a keyboard is not acting.
Not sure about this...the three of them acted with the times and the platforms they had back in the day. They also walked all over the place too. We are in different times. By using platforms like this, and yes some of them are via keyboard, it is "acting" in the way 2021 allots for. While different in methodology, it is a bit simplistic to pretend taking the time out of the day to type out an opinion is not acting.
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Posted on 1/25/21 at 6:00 pm to burger bearcat
Yep. Too often we think God’s plan must align with our plan.
There is also a vastly inflated view of the United States, as if God’s plan cannot be carried out without this countries blessing and approval.
There is also a vastly inflated view of the United States, as if God’s plan cannot be carried out without this countries blessing and approval.
Posted on 1/25/21 at 7:08 pm to ShoeBang
quote:
Yet I stand by them, as I have heard people say almost identical things to mean what I inferred from you. If I am wrong I can accept that and relent, but experience tells me that people interpret god's nature to be whatever is most convenient to them or their group. Protestantism proves that theory IMO.
You straight-up started running with what you wanted to talk about instead of explaining why you made extreme assumptions. You want extreme we'll go extreme. Malachi Martin, an excommunicated decorated exorcist from the Vatican, who served under John Paul II said that willpower is our only force against the demonic and evils of the world. It is the power that God instilled over us which angels and demons do not have. It is what makes us special out of his creations. It is why angels are stated to hate us and how Lucifer convinced them to rebel in heaven against God.
From what I have seen from your responses, the issue with your perspective is that you are the center of your own universe. You are a slave to your own ego. Because you haven't seen something or nothing has compelled you specifically then you don't believe it. You can spin your response however you want but your egotism is what blinds you to see the real message in things in my opinion. Your whole reasoning and value system with religion is about how things appeal to you but that's not how the world works. We don't just live in a world of you's.
Don't believe me? Go listen to Malachi Martin's interviews with Art Bell and tell me he doesn't have a genuine message for humanity about God in what he says. And if him being a heretic in the eyes of the church discredits him to you, then going off of what you have portrayed here, then what do you have to lose? You have already wasted plenty of your time here.
quote:
I was born unbelieving. Some of my earliest thoughts were thinking to myself how bullshite the whole thing seems. Try as I have, I've never been able to shake it.
Ok? I don't know what you're looking for here, it just seems like nothing was convincing enough to you because your ego was getting in the way of understanding yourself. This is probably something emulated here, but I'm not a psychiatrist and this isn't the Soccer Board.
Posted on 1/25/21 at 7:28 pm to sicboy
The Kingdom of GOD suffers violence and the violent take it by force!
Posted on 1/25/21 at 7:30 pm to ShoeBang
quote:
The real Bible doesn't exist anymore. It has been selectively pruned and curated to be the authoritative document the church needed it to be when convenient
That's false.
We have more scraps and pieces and copies of the New Testament than for that of Homer's Iliad or other classic works. Furthermore, if the scraps of papyri with the text aren't enough, the early Church fathers quoted almost the entirety of the Bible over the course of their writings.
Those manuscripts agree to something like 98% with each other, and though there are literally hundreds of thousands of variations, most are misspellings, an omitted or added article (a, the), etc.
We can be pretty confident that the Bible as we have it today is extremely accurate. Books that did not make the canonical versions were written later or could not be traced back to actual apostolic sources (like the Gospel of Thomas).
Posted on 1/25/21 at 9:50 pm to hometownhero89
I’m well versed on Fr Martin, so thanks. I find him entertaining.
Let’s talk about ego, since that is where most of reality lies, in the juxtaposition of self vs how we perceive everything that is not self. Yours and mine could be quite different based on a whole host of variables. Life experiences being the biggest.
My ego? is on life support at best, pal. My family made sure it never healed up enough for me to make it the center of my world. I have made no assumptions about you personally, only that I’ve seen talk like that many times and here you are projecting some affliction on to me as a guess but you say it as certainty. Perfect example of perception basically being reality. It’s real to you, but I just challenged it. It’s still real in your ego, no? Of course it is. In mine, it is not real. Neither of us are right, because true reality cannot be observed from outside of someone’s head.
I forgive you, for you know not what you speak.
Also do yourself a favor and do some shrooms or something. The detachment from what is perceived as reality can make you understand more about yourself and what you consider to be real or not.
Let’s talk about ego, since that is where most of reality lies, in the juxtaposition of self vs how we perceive everything that is not self. Yours and mine could be quite different based on a whole host of variables. Life experiences being the biggest.
My ego? is on life support at best, pal. My family made sure it never healed up enough for me to make it the center of my world. I have made no assumptions about you personally, only that I’ve seen talk like that many times and here you are projecting some affliction on to me as a guess but you say it as certainty. Perfect example of perception basically being reality. It’s real to you, but I just challenged it. It’s still real in your ego, no? Of course it is. In mine, it is not real. Neither of us are right, because true reality cannot be observed from outside of someone’s head.
I forgive you, for you know not what you speak.
Also do yourself a favor and do some shrooms or something. The detachment from what is perceived as reality can make you understand more about yourself and what you consider to be real or not.
Posted on 1/25/21 at 10:34 pm to tgrmeat
quote:
God exists and he is patient in wiping us all of the face of the earth for our depravity,
I’d have rather never been spit into existence than be put here and tested to see how loyal I am to a being that created me to fail
Posted on 1/25/21 at 11:09 pm to ShoeBang
quote:
My ego? is on life support at best, pal. My family made sure it never healed up enough for me to make it the center of my world. I have made no assumptions about you personally, only that I’ve seen talk like that many times and here you are projecting some affliction on to me as a guess but you say it as certainty. Perfect example of perception basically being reality. It’s real to you, but I just challenged it. It’s still real in your ego, no? Of course it is. In mine, it is not real. Neither of us are right, because true reality cannot be observed from outside of someone’s head.
Man, what a world to live in where you can just build up your own crescendo just to bring it all back down. And to be so conceited while still deflecting a question.
This post was edited on 1/25/21 at 11:48 pm
Posted on 1/25/21 at 11:37 pm to ShoeBang
quote:
I have made no assumptions about you personally,
quote:
The way I see it is you believe in God being..........
Posted on 1/26/21 at 9:59 am to ShoeBang
quote:
That tells me that good or bad is subjective to the whims of the almighty, thus the ideas of the two are inherently flawed.
I have been cursed with an unbelieving mind since I was a small child. I have talked to priests, religion teachers of some of the false Christian religions like Baptist and Methodist, and no one has been able to convince me that their interpretation of him is close to true.
If god exists, he cured me from birth with the inability to believe. I have been searching for something to believe in my whole life, yet nothing touched me. It has lead me to studying as many religions as possible for something to believe, but I never have. Stll bring my family to Catholic church every Sunday, but I stopped listening 15 years ago, just can't devote energy to something that I can't feel or believe.
I'll stop this convo here because it is certainly the wrong forum.
God does exist, you just haven't found the proof you are looking for yet. It is always good to have questions and search for your answers. It is never good to believe in something without a good justification of the belief. So I encourage you to keep searching for the answers you need.
Be assured that He does exist. I truly believe you will find what you are looking for if you persist in searching. Your skepticism will be a blessing when it all makes sense to you as it did for me.
A couple of the things that helped me was that we as humans are not needed for this earth. The universe can not create us without a need for us, and if we all vanish off the earth today, the earth is still here and will flourish. God created us in his image and likeness because He loves us and wants us to experience love.
Also, there is too much order to the world to be a spontaneous creation out of nothing unless there is a creator. The fact that we have an order to the world and we are living creatures points to a creator. Otherwise it would be like an explosion in a print shop and after the dust settles you are left with a copy of Shakespeare's finest work. There are many other proofs, such as miracles and NDE's, but these are just a few.
The truth, not a truth but THE truth is the way of Jesus Christ. Most denominations have some truth to them but the fullness of the truth and all the gifts God wants to give us (sacraments) are in the church he started, the Catholic church.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 11:35 am to sicboy
The Demiurge at work.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 11:37 am to DeathToTheDemiurge
quote:
DeathToTheDemiurge
I find gnostic beliefs very interesting.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 12:20 pm to Mo Jeaux
Yes, very interesting yet long winded when attempting to explain the mythos to the average person. The "Original/First Christians" tag gets Catholic's heads spinning every time.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 12:27 pm to ShoeBang
quote:
The real Bible doesn't exist anymore. It has been selectively pruned and curated to be the authoritative document the church needed it to be when convenient
Bzzzt. Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 1:09 pm to Mo Jeaux
“the church he started,the Catholic Church”
I’ve read the Bible a good bit and I’ve never seen mentioned “the Catholic Church”.
I was born and raised a Catholic,went to Catholic schools 12 years, spent 2 years in Catholic country (Spain) and worked in Catholic hospital 29:years.I can’t imagine that any other religion has the huge percentage of hypocrites that the Catholic Church has.
For example, the current pope said it was ok to vote for candidates that advocate for abortion as long as his position on other issues (immigration,capital punishment) were satisfactory.Are you kidding me?It’s ok to kill an unborn child up unto the moment of birth and to vote for monsters that support that,actually glorify it.And yet 50% of Catholics vote Democrat.For the record,I’m against capital punishment also.
My own personal belief is this:God created man in his image,gave us the 10 commandments and the Bible to show us the benefits of following his commandments.He also gave us a free will to follow his commandments or suffer the consequences.
The U.S.was a blessed country because it was founded “one nation under God” but as we move away from God things are going to get progressively worse.Maybe we’ll go back to our roots but I’m not very hopeful.
I’ve read the Bible a good bit and I’ve never seen mentioned “the Catholic Church”.
I was born and raised a Catholic,went to Catholic schools 12 years, spent 2 years in Catholic country (Spain) and worked in Catholic hospital 29:years.I can’t imagine that any other religion has the huge percentage of hypocrites that the Catholic Church has.
For example, the current pope said it was ok to vote for candidates that advocate for abortion as long as his position on other issues (immigration,capital punishment) were satisfactory.Are you kidding me?It’s ok to kill an unborn child up unto the moment of birth and to vote for monsters that support that,actually glorify it.And yet 50% of Catholics vote Democrat.For the record,I’m against capital punishment also.
My own personal belief is this:God created man in his image,gave us the 10 commandments and the Bible to show us the benefits of following his commandments.He also gave us a free will to follow his commandments or suffer the consequences.
The U.S.was a blessed country because it was founded “one nation under God” but as we move away from God things are going to get progressively worse.Maybe we’ll go back to our roots but I’m not very hopeful.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 1:11 pm to burger bearcat
I'm no person of faith or expert on Christianity but I'm pretty sure the Old Testament showed us that God was pissed off and done with humanity after the whole apple eating ordeal. Even though all was forgiven when God sent Jesus to die for us (which makes no sense anyway), it seems God is still pretty pissed.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 1:27 pm to LSUA 75
quote:
I can’t imagine that any other religion has the huge percentage of hypocrites that the Catholic Church has.
Liberalism, secular humanists.
My favorite is the "keep religion and morality out of politics crowd", who then go on to quote scripture and talk about Jesus when it comes to social justice, or talk about how "evil" racism is and we need legislation to combat it.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 1:52 pm to tb.cl_at
Not directed at me, but I'm going to respond.
Well, the proof I'm looking for is I would like to actually see a deity. I have lived for 42 years and been to 6 continents and still haven't seen one.
What do you believe would be justification for atheism?
Why should I be assured? Because you say so?
This doesn't make any sense.
This is such a tired argument.
First of all, nothing around you just appeared. You were born from a woman, the Sun you see was created by gravity and hydrogen fusion, the plants grew from seeds, and so forth.
Second, it's never made sense to me for someone to say "The Universe is too complex to just exist" but their alternative is an infinitely more complex entity that "just exists." That's like saying a wheelbarrow is too complicated to "just exist" but not a Ferrari.
If something must exist without an origin - as we understand it - the best answer is the simple answer that requires the fewest assumptions.
Gravity organized the Universe. It brought together clouds of gas and dust that eventually formed stars... that formed planets... that formed life.
It's peculiar how all these miracles occurred thousands of years ago when people were much more ignorant and communication across distances was extremely slow and limited and relied a lot on hearsay. Now that everyone has a camera in their hand and global communication is instant, we don't see all these epic miracles anymore.
Goodness. Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims. Can we get God to come down here and settle all this shite?
What's going to get so bad? The 21st century will never see anywhere near the death and injustice of the 19th and 20th centuries.
I thank my lucky stars that I was born post-Vietnam because the United States has been (and will continue to be) a helluva lot better place to live than it was in the 200 years prior my birth.
quote:
God does exist, you just haven't found the proof you are looking for yet.
Well, the proof I'm looking for is I would like to actually see a deity. I have lived for 42 years and been to 6 continents and still haven't seen one.
quote:
It is always good to have questions and search for your answers. It is never good to believe in something without a good justification of the belief. So I encourage you to keep searching for the answers you need.
What do you believe would be justification for atheism?
quote:
Be assured that He does exist.
Why should I be assured? Because you say so?
quote:
A couple of the things that helped me was that we as humans are not needed for this earth. The universe can not create us without a need for us, and if we all vanish off the earth today, the earth is still here and will flourish.
This doesn't make any sense.
quote:
Also, there is too much order to the world to be a spontaneous creation out of nothing unless there is a creator.
This is such a tired argument.
First of all, nothing around you just appeared. You were born from a woman, the Sun you see was created by gravity and hydrogen fusion, the plants grew from seeds, and so forth.
Second, it's never made sense to me for someone to say "The Universe is too complex to just exist" but their alternative is an infinitely more complex entity that "just exists." That's like saying a wheelbarrow is too complicated to "just exist" but not a Ferrari.
If something must exist without an origin - as we understand it - the best answer is the simple answer that requires the fewest assumptions.
quote:
Otherwise it would be like an explosion in a print shop and after the dust settles you are left with a copy of Shakespeare's finest work.
Gravity organized the Universe. It brought together clouds of gas and dust that eventually formed stars... that formed planets... that formed life.
quote:
There are many other proofs, such as miracles and NDE's, but these are just a few.
It's peculiar how all these miracles occurred thousands of years ago when people were much more ignorant and communication across distances was extremely slow and limited and relied a lot on hearsay. Now that everyone has a camera in their hand and global communication is instant, we don't see all these epic miracles anymore.
quote:
The truth, not a truth but THE truth is the way of Jesus Christ. Most denominations have some truth to them but the fullness of the truth and all the gifts God wants to give us (sacraments) are in the church he started, the Catholic church.
Goodness. Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims. Can we get God to come down here and settle all this shite?
quote:
The U.S.was a blessed country because it was founded “one nation under God” but as we move away from God things are going to get progressively worse.
What's going to get so bad? The 21st century will never see anywhere near the death and injustice of the 19th and 20th centuries.
I thank my lucky stars that I was born post-Vietnam because the United States has been (and will continue to be) a helluva lot better place to live than it was in the 200 years prior my birth.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 1:53 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
"God's plan"
People seem to conveniently forget that the book of Revelation is part of God's plan.
Posted on 1/26/21 at 1:53 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
Well, the proof I'm looking for is I would like to actually see a deity. I have lived for 42 years and been to 6 continents and still haven't seen one.
And you won't.
Not the Christian God anyways. He has no parts, is not made of atoms, etc.
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