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re: Debate... Zach v. Draconian Sanctions Topic: Cap Pun
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:04 pm to Zach
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:04 pm to Zach
I think it's pretty simple. It is not right for somebody to kill somebody else.
So if person A murders someone, why does that give others a free pass to murder that person?
So the police arrest somebody for murdering someone because murder is bad. But then the system is going to murder that guy just because he did it to somebody else? How is that right?
So if person A murders someone, why does that give others a free pass to murder that person?
So the police arrest somebody for murdering someone because murder is bad. But then the system is going to murder that guy just because he did it to somebody else? How is that right?
This post was edited on 3/13/14 at 1:06 pm
3
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:04 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I could see this point a little better if the jury actually had to be the ones to pull the trigger
but in Louisians doesn't it require a jury to convict then a jury to issue a death sentence?Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:05 pm to UncleFestersLegs
Considering the death penalty I think the defendant should be given one of two choices upon conviction.
1. You can spend the rest of your life in prison with only one appeal. You lose that appeal then no early release, if any at all.
2. You can elect the death sentence with three appeals. You lose them all and you die next month.
1. You can spend the rest of your life in prison with only one appeal. You lose that appeal then no early release, if any at all.
2. You can elect the death sentence with three appeals. You lose them all and you die next month.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:06 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
So the police is going to arrest somebody for murdering someone because murder is bad. But then the system is going to murder that guy just because he did it to somebody else? How is that right?
What should the punishment for kidnappers be, applying your logic?
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:06 pm to Zach
quote:
This thread is not to prove Cap Pun is good or bad. It's to prove that DS cannot argue points in a straight line. He deflects, obfuscates and uses emoticons
I'm waiting for your apology
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:06 pm to Draconian Sanctions
#1. Kinda ad hom, without substance. Of what relevance is the proponent's positions on other things with varying degrees of relation?
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:07 pm to Turkey_Creek_Tiger
quote:
I dont see how anyone could disagree with this
Raises hand to disagree.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:08 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
What should the punishment for kidnappers be, applying your logic?
That's actually well done...
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:10 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I'm waiting for your apology
An argument is just one post?
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:11 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
Well #1 you would think that for people on the right side of the aisle, those who frequently champion smaller government and demonize the role of the state, this would be an easy issue for them. Here we literally have the state murdering its own citizens. Is that not an extension of "big government"? You don't trust the state to hand out and monitor food stamps activities but you do trust them to carry out executions?
I have 3 responses to that. Please deal with all of them:
a. If you don't believe that the state has the right to murder then you believe in Slavery and Nazism. It took the state (Civil War and WWII) to kill millions to end both.
b. The right/libertarian believes in justice and ownership of self. When you murder me you deprive me of primary ownership of self. The only just recompense is denial of the murderers ownership of self. Cap Pun.
c. Societal retribution. Let's say that Hitler was captured alive. Would you sentence him to life or execution? Some crimes just make people feel better when the perp dies.
quote:
#2 as we've seen recently, being convicted of murder and sentenced to death doesn't actually mean that you even did anything wrong LINK
3 responses..
a. Being released from death row does NOT mean you were innocent. It means that someone found a reason for doubt. After a sentence of death the prosecution does not continue to prove they were right. The defense continues to try and prove they were wrong. See the Rosenberg case for this.
b. DNA testing makes a wrongful conviction almost impossible today.
c. The length of time between sentencing to death and execution is about 20 years. You're more likely to die of old age in prison.
quote:
#3 The death penalty does not deter people from murder LINK
3 responses:
a. Why does it have to deter? It makes recidivism impossible.
b. Deterrence is linked to sureness of punishment. If I see that people get away with murder (OJ Simpson) then there is no deterrence.
c. In the 19th century murderers were hung in the public square. In fact, horse thieves were also hung. Parents brought their kids out to see it as a lesson to deter them from committing crime.
quote:
#4 The death penalty is ultimate act of vengeance.
Yes, so what? If someone murdered my wife I would gladly execute them by sticking an ice pick in their bodies for about an hour until they were dead. I'd love every minute of it.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:14 pm to Zach
quote:
Zach
Nice response.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:14 pm to Draconian Sanctions
quote:
I'm waiting for your apology
I'm waiting for your responses to your pathetic arguments.
Your move, DS.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:21 pm to Draconian Sanctions
Well 1 and 4 are just Redirects that do not reinforce the argument with any substantial evidence or info.
Although 2 and 3 do.
I rate a B.
Although 2 and 3 do.
I rate a B.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:24 pm to Zach
quote:
a. If you don't believe that the state has the right to murder then you believe in Slavery and Nazism. It took the state (Civil War and WWII) to kill millions to end both.
in those instances, even the civil war, the state was not murdering it's own citizens, it was murdering citizens of other nations.
quote:
b. The right/libertarian believes in justice and ownership of self. When you murder me you deprive me of primary ownership of self. The only just recompense is denial of the murderers ownership of self. Cap Pun.
Okay so by that rationale are we also going to say the proper response to someone stealing your property would be for the government to show up and steal some of that perpetrators property as well?
quote:
c. Societal retribution. Let's say that Hitler was captured alive. Would you sentence him to life or execution? Some crimes just make people feel better when the perp dies.
Again you're using an emotion to determine our general public policy.
and yes i would have sentenced him to life in prison.
quote:
a. Being released from death row does NOT mean you were innocent. It means that someone found a reason for doubt. After a sentence of death the prosecution does not continue to prove they were right. The defense continues to try and prove they were wrong. See the Rosenberg case for this.
Well okay but even then i just don't think it's a good policy to be executing people when there is a good reason to doubt their guilt. Are you saying that's what we should be doing? Would you get rid of the reasonable doubt standard for convictions? I'm seriously asking here because your post doesn't make it clear.
quote:
b. DNA testing makes a wrongful conviction almost impossible today.
what if, for whatever reason, there is no DNA sample in a particular case? Would you be ok with a death sentence there?
quote:
c. The length of time between sentencing to death and execution is about 20 years. You're more likely to die of old age in prison.
Alright so if it's so much more likely already anyway then why don;t we just get rid of the DP altogether?
quote:
Why does it have to deter?
it doesn't but that's a common argument
quote:
It makes recidivism impossible
so does life in prison
quote:
b. Deterrence is linked to sureness of punishment. If I see that people get away with murder (OJ Simpson) then there is no deterrence.
Wait, are you saying that deterrence has failed because of OJ but if he had been executed then we would have seen a drop in murders?
quote:
In the 19th century murderers were hung in the public square. In fact, horse thieves were also hung. Parents brought their kids out to see it as a lesson to deter them from committing crime.
What does this have to do with anything? And regardless should we keep all 17th century social practices alive?
quote:
Yes, so what? If someone murdered my wife I would gladly execute them by sticking an ice pick in their bodies for about an hour until they were dead. I'd love every minute of it.
because judicial fairness means fairness from all parties, and that includes taking the decision of the fate of the accused out of the hands of the victim. Those people are not objectively capable of making a socially constructive decision.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:25 pm to Zach
quote:
It took the state (Civil War and WWII) to kill millions to end both.
Both of which were created and sanctioned by the state. Non-starter for you.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:25 pm to Zach
quote:
to your pathetic arguments.
already getting into using this kind of language, uh?
this is exactly why i choose not to engage with you. You're incapable of having an adult conversation.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:31 pm to Zach
D.S. response to #4 I DISAGREE
The life in prison or death penalty situation.
The end result is the same death.
But the people who suffer or the tax payers.
We foot the bill for no telling how many years, food, medical housing and in the end the result still is DEATH, delayed and funded by the working class of this once great country.
The life in prison or death penalty situation.
The end result is the same death.
But the people who suffer or the tax payers.
We foot the bill for no telling how many years, food, medical housing and in the end the result still is DEATH, delayed and funded by the working class of this once great country.
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:33 pm to Tony Tiger89
quote:
But the people who suffer or the tax payers.
We foot the bill for no telling how many years, food, medical housing and in the end the result still is DEATH, delayed and funded by the working class of this once great country
#1 if we just ended the war on drugs the taxpayers would save so much more money overall that it would be like a drop in the bucket.
#2 If that's your position then are you in favor of expanding executions to include lesser crimes that result in 30 year+ sentences?
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:36 pm to Zach
1.a. Weak
2. OK
3. OK, most death row types are nobodies though;
2.a. Good
b. Good (if convicted today)
3. Agreed
3. Me too
Good opening
2. OK
3. OK, most death row types are nobodies though;
2.a. Good
b. Good (if convicted today)
3. Agreed
3. Me too
Good opening
Posted on 3/13/14 at 1:41 pm to Draconian Sanctions
I'm all for pot legalization, 1.) money maker 2.)way less harmful than mr. legal alcohol.
I'm not for expanding for lessor crimes, thats just crazy talk. If your crime is murder, beating of older people to a pulp or raping a 86 year old, you should be put to sleep immediately!!
Never really cared for you in the past D.S. but you do have some good input in these issues.
I'm not for expanding for lessor crimes, thats just crazy talk. If your crime is murder, beating of older people to a pulp or raping a 86 year old, you should be put to sleep immediately!!
Never really cared for you in the past D.S. but you do have some good input in these issues.
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