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Can pure Socialism work without magic technology?
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:31 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:31 am
Just a question based on a conversation I was having with a friend. We were discussing if Socialism could work or not, and the first part was where I said no, he would counter with socialist programs we have in the US. I pointed out that infrastructure and protection services hardly constitute "socialist", and the "success" of welfare programs would be highly debatable. So, instead of focusing on that, we switched gears to if a "socialist utopia" could ever work.
That led us to Star Trek. He stated that it was a good example of what a "good" socialist government could do.
I countered on four points:
1.) That planet had gone through a full blown WWIII.
2.) That was a planet that encountered aliens, and a good number of them hostile. It is likely that the decision to unify into a single government had less to do with happy-feely goodness and more to do with "we don't want to be enslaved by Klingons"
3.) We don't see what it was like pre-replicator, which is the "magic technology" I'm referring to in the title. The replicator removed the basic "needs" of human survival, coupled with the unlimited power sources that human beings had developed (anti-matter, magic crystals, etc).
4.) Warp drive meant that Earth went from being the only place of relevance for human beings to being one of a ton of places.
So, three technologies, one of which is impossible with our current understanding of physics (the replicator) allowed for Roddenberry's socialist utopia to be created. At least, that was my opinion. I could not see human beings disregarding their human natures without the discovery of antagonistic alien species and a technology that gave people everything they needed for survival, meaning you either started helping everyone else out or you just got fat and lazy.
That led us to Star Trek. He stated that it was a good example of what a "good" socialist government could do.
I countered on four points:
1.) That planet had gone through a full blown WWIII.
2.) That was a planet that encountered aliens, and a good number of them hostile. It is likely that the decision to unify into a single government had less to do with happy-feely goodness and more to do with "we don't want to be enslaved by Klingons"
3.) We don't see what it was like pre-replicator, which is the "magic technology" I'm referring to in the title. The replicator removed the basic "needs" of human survival, coupled with the unlimited power sources that human beings had developed (anti-matter, magic crystals, etc).
4.) Warp drive meant that Earth went from being the only place of relevance for human beings to being one of a ton of places.
So, three technologies, one of which is impossible with our current understanding of physics (the replicator) allowed for Roddenberry's socialist utopia to be created. At least, that was my opinion. I could not see human beings disregarding their human natures without the discovery of antagonistic alien species and a technology that gave people everything they needed for survival, meaning you either started helping everyone else out or you just got fat and lazy.
12
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:32 am to skrayper
Pure capitalism can't work, either.
Nothing pure works in reality, compromises are required.
Nothing pure works in reality, compromises are required.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:37 am to skrayper
I've actually participated in this same conversation before.
This is what makes it work. People are no longer starving. Basic human needs are cared for through Science magic. With the struggle that is the human existance over, people have nothing left to fight about except for ideals. It will take an outside invading force to unify us.
quote:
We don't see what it was like pre-replicator, which is the "magic technology" I'm referring to in the title. The replicator removed the basic "needs" of human survival, coupled with the unlimited power sources that human beings had developed (anti-matter, magic crystals, etc).
This is what makes it work. People are no longer starving. Basic human needs are cared for through Science magic. With the struggle that is the human existance over, people have nothing left to fight about except for ideals. It will take an outside invading force to unify us.
quote:
That was a planet that encountered aliens, and a good number of them hostile. It is likely that the decision to unify into a single government had less to do with happy-feely goodness and more to do with "we don't want to be enslaved by Klingons"
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:37 am to skrayper
Socialism wouldn't even work with magic technology. It is contrary to human nature and punishes the best parts of our nature while empowering the worst. It is a sweet candy filled with corrossion.
Socialism only works on the small scale when all members are voluntarily participating. As soon as force is needed, it falls apart.
Socialism only works on the small scale when all members are voluntarily participating. As soon as force is needed, it falls apart.
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 9:38 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:41 am to BamaAtl
quote:
Pure capitalism can't work, either.
Well, here is the difference - under socialism - nothing gets done. There is no drive/hunger/motivation to do better. If you do, the government takes it and distributes it. If you don't, the government takes care of you.
With capitalism (even pure capitalism), shite gets done. Now, I agree that some regulations are necessary, but only to preserve the market - such as protections against trusts and monopolies. But other than that, the closer you get to capitalism, the better off everyone will become. That's the rising tide that lifts all boats.
Why? Because enlightened self-interest is the most powerful tool of civilization.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:42 am to skrayper
One would need ubiquitous perfect information all the time. Not possible without God-like technology.
We'd probably be better at it than the Soviets and other nearly pure socialistic economies given the current tools at our disposal with predictive analytics and super-computing and whatnot, but it'd still be far from ideal.
We'd probably be better at it than the Soviets and other nearly pure socialistic economies given the current tools at our disposal with predictive analytics and super-computing and whatnot, but it'd still be far from ideal.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:43 am to skrayper
I don't think there's anything magic about the long-term economic trends towards post-scarcity.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:45 am to skrayper
If we're going with the space theme…
The more accurate prediction of the socialist model would look like Earth on "The Expanse." The UN is the world government, and the people have rations. Along with the rations, they get a drug that keeps them happy enough to not riot.
The weathy are stupid wealthy, and everybody else is poor.
The more accurate prediction of the socialist model would look like Earth on "The Expanse." The UN is the world government, and the people have rations. Along with the rations, they get a drug that keeps them happy enough to not riot.
The weathy are stupid wealthy, and everybody else is poor.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:45 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Well, here is the difference - under socialism - nothing gets done. There is no drive/hunger/motivation to do better. If you do, the government takes it and distributes it. If you don't, the government takes care of you.
With capitalism (even pure capitalism), shite gets done. Now, I agree that some regulations are necessary, but only to preserve the market - such as protections against trusts and monopolies. But other than that, the closer you get to capitalism, the better off everyone will become. That's the rising tide that lifts all boats.
With capitalism, nothing gets done. Your work is given to enrich robber barons, so you never see the fruits of your labor.
With socialism, you know that you have some minimum standard of care that you're working toward - so it can be beneficial.
(see how easy it is to make stupid arguments like the one you just tried?)
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:46 am to skrayper
Pure socialism works very well in a small to medium sized country with homogenous demographics of either white or asian culture and a liberal/secular orthodoxy.
The problem is that in such countries (especially white ones) the liberal/secular value system seems to prohibit the exclusion of outsiders that is needed to maintain this ideal setup, and therefore the system will come crashing down.
The problem is that in such countries (especially white ones) the liberal/secular value system seems to prohibit the exclusion of outsiders that is needed to maintain this ideal setup, and therefore the system will come crashing down.
This post was edited on 4/24/17 at 9:48 am
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:47 am to SirWinston
quote:@DPRK_News agrees
Pure socialism works in a small to medium sized country with homogenous demographics of either white or asian culture and a liberal/secular orthodoxy.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:47 am to BamaAtl
quote:
(see how easy it is to make stupid arguments like the one you just tried?)
Except, we have countless stories about folks elevating themselves and others in a capitalistic system. You almost never see that with socialism, particularly without overt corruption.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:52 am to skrayper
In order for pure socialism (utopia) to work, you must remove freedom of thought. Each and every individual would have to work, live and remain in his own bubble. If not, homeostasis is thrown off, revolutions happen, etc.
Pure capitalism may be imperfect, but it's a much better alternative.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Pure capitalism may be imperfect, but it's a much better alternative.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 9:59 am to kingbob
quote:
Socialism only works on the small scale when all members are voluntarily participating. As soon as force is needed, it falls apart.
It doesn't even work then. Numerous small communes were tried in the Early America and Early Australia days, all failed in spectacular fashion. The last one would probably be Jonestown.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:01 am to SirWinston
Yes. Socialism needs homogeny. The greatest of things will be done with it, like NASA. But you have to have homogeny of the people or there is no point in bothering with socialism, they will just want different things. There is always that selfish gene to watch out for though.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:03 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Except, we have countless stories about folks elevating themselves and others in a capitalistic system.
Not a pure capitalistic system.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:06 am to BamaAtl
quote:
Not a pure capitalistic system.
We're defining away the debate then. If we don't like something it's "pure" the other way. But, if it's successful, it can't be "pure" the way we don't like them.
And of course, there is no "pure" socialism, either.
You win.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:07 am to zatetic
quote:
The greatest of things will be done with it, like NASA.
It's hilarious when folks think things like the Manhattan Project or the Apollo Program could happen without private contractors working with a profit motive.
Posted on 4/24/17 at 10:09 am to skrayper
No. There isn't a person here who would thrive in a socialist country. It requires the constant threat of violence and removal of freedom
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