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Message
re: 9 reasons why public educ fails
Posted on 4/13/14 at 8:02 am to Tigah in the ATL
Posted on 4/13/14 at 8:02 am to Tigah in the ATL
quote:
There's nothing wrong with public schools except in states who fail to resource them properly
By "resource", do you mean money?
If so,
1
Posted on 4/13/14 at 8:04 am to Eurocat
quote:
I watched it. This link has nothing to do with the discussion.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 8:19 am to NC_Tigah
Teacher Unions and Parents. Their trying to fix one but the other can't be fixed. Government can't replace, Daddy
Posted on 4/13/14 at 8:28 am to Tackle74
quote:
Students whose parents care about their kids education, have, get this, students who do well in class.
Comma added for readability.
Doing well in class, while a noble goal, does not = educated. We know more today, but understand less. Some students can tell you what year the constitution was written and ratified, but almost none can explain why.
Schools today crank out memorizers and regurgitators instead of thinkers. This has been a slow progression over the last 100 or so years.
If someone (or many people) receives a positive evaluation from a school, that doesn't validate the quality of instruction given by the school.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 9:00 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
It depends almost entirely on where you go to public school.
I went to school in an affluent district, had excellent teachers and coaches, good community support and most importantly an excellent AP program. I got a lot out of public school.
If you go to school in an urban district or a very rural one, odds are your experience was quite different.
While I agree, I'm pretty sure your positive experience is the exception rather than the rule.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 9:34 am to Tigah in the ATL
quote:
There's nothing wrong with public schools except in states who fail to resource them properly.
The Shawnee Mission Case says you're wrong. In an unprecedented reach of judicial activism a judge in Missouri imposed massive property tax hikes on people in suburban Kansas City to fund failing inner city schools.
The schools got extensive physical refurbishing and teacher salaries skyrocketed. Materials and supplies for students were top of the line.
After 10 years the inner city schools reported no increase in test scores; no increase in graduation rates; no decrease in suspensions. The resources had Zero effect.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 9:42 am to Tigah in the ATL
quote:The inaccuracy in that assertion is breath-taking.
There's nothing wrong with public schools except in states who fail to resource them properly.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 9:51 am to Zach
quote:
Can't think of a reason why any of the points are wrong.
Nine biased assertions.
Right off the bat, #2 is wrong. It's dumb to have an opposition to concepts and theories taught under the label "new math". Sure, a lot of students only have the brain power for rote memorization of arithmetic, and a lot of them will need nothing more in their future limited lives, but science and technological progress depend on the ability to THINK AND CONCEPTUALIZE rather than just to memorize, and the future competitiveness of this country depends on having people who can do so.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:08 am to Rex
quote:
Rex
9 reasons why public educ fails
quote:
Can't think of a reason why any of the points are wrong.
Nine biased assertions.
Right off the bat, #2 is wrong. It's dumb to have an opposition to concepts and theories taught under the label "new math". Sure, a lot of students only have the brain power for rote memorization of arithmetic, and a lot of them will need nothing more in their future limited lives, but science and technological progress depend on the ability to THINK AND CONCEPTUALIZE rather than just to memorize, and the future competitiveness of this country depends on having people who can do so.
most of these new math theories discard rote memorization almost completely, if not completely ... the rush to incorporate "conceptualization" into math has lead to reliance on calculators and kids arriving at hs literally not knowing their multiplication tables ...
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:12 am to EST
quote:
By "resource", do you mean money? If so,
Exactly, because in ALL of our endeavors, Education is the one where less investent equals better results.
Wait...
...what?
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:25 am to tiderider
quote:
Right off the bat, #2 is wrong. It's dumb to have an opposition to concepts and theories taught under the label "new math". Sure, a lot of students only have the brain power for rote memorization of arithmetic, and a lot of them will need nothing more in their future limited lives, but science and technological progress depend on the ability to THINK AND CONCEPTUALIZE rather than just to memorize, and the future competitiveness of this country depends on having people who can do so.
============
most of these new math theories discard rote memorization almost completely, if not completely ... the rush to incorporate "conceptualization" into math has lead to reliance on calculators and kids arriving at hs literally not knowing their multiplication tables ...
I really cannot tell who is advocating what - or if there is any difference in what the two of you are saying - I agree with both.
As a now retired High School math teacher (retired in Oct) I can vouch for the fact that most students arrive at the 11th grade without knowing their multiplication facts - they have been allowed, even taught, to use their calculators for everything. This is wrong - very wrong. I have seen students actually using calculators to multiply a number by 1 - or even zero.
When a multiplication is seen as nothing more than a series of keystrokes, it is difficult to establish a habit of looking for common factors.
I used to always have at least one warmup problem where I would post a division problem with the exact same numbers (factors) in the numerator as the denominator and ask them to find the quotient. I would have enough factors to multiply that the calculator would have to resort to scientific notation to present the answer.
I never once had a student look at the problem and just write down the obvious answer "= 1"
It is difficult to establish a sense for factorization and simplification when these concepts are totally foreign to their basic understandings of how things work.
So - I applaud any concentration on concepts and understanding over mechanical skills, but I also insist on having basic knowledge of simple multiplication and addition facts - WITHOUT a calculator.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:45 am to Rex
Rex, re: Rote memorization. I learned addition, subtraction, multiplication from memory exercises way back in the day. Division also became automatic to me without writing anything down due to studying baseball statistics; IE, by age 6 I knew that if Johnny Callison got 24 hits in 100 ABs I knew his average was .240 without taking out pen and paper.
In my senior year of HS I took the hardest final exam I've ever gone through. My 70 year old bitch of a teacher (British Authors) told us exactly what the final exam was going to be the day before we took it.
She said "I'm going to give each of you 10 pages of blank paper. You shall write down the entire table of contents of your English text book."
The table of contents was 10 pages long... divided by Era, Genre, Authors, Works. It was massive. I studied all night. I got an 'A'. But I thought it was totally inappropriate.
Then when I went to Centenary and took Lit classes it paid off. When a prof asked the class something like 'Does anyone know who wrote Childe Harold's Pilgrimage?' I would always wait and look around to see if it was commonly known. When no hands came up I would say "Lord Byron."
BTW... here is my favorite poem by Byron ...
epitath to a dog
In my senior year of HS I took the hardest final exam I've ever gone through. My 70 year old bitch of a teacher (British Authors) told us exactly what the final exam was going to be the day before we took it.
She said "I'm going to give each of you 10 pages of blank paper. You shall write down the entire table of contents of your English text book."
The table of contents was 10 pages long... divided by Era, Genre, Authors, Works. It was massive. I studied all night. I got an 'A'. But I thought it was totally inappropriate.
Then when I went to Centenary and took Lit classes it paid off. When a prof asked the class something like 'Does anyone know who wrote Childe Harold's Pilgrimage?' I would always wait and look around to see if it was commonly known. When no hands came up I would say "Lord Byron."
BTW... here is my favorite poem by Byron ...
epitath to a dog
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:45 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
As a now retired High School math teacher (retired in Oct)
Did you retire by choice or felt yourself getting pushed out?
Either way, I'm sure your students lost a valuable community asset.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:50 am to Rex
quote:
Sure, a lot of students only have the brain power for rote memorization of arithmetic, and a lot of them will need nothing more in their future limited lives, but science and technological progress depend on the ability to THINK AND CONCEPTUALIZE rather than just to memorize, and the future competitiveness of this country depends on having people who can do so.
you memorize the building blocks and think during advance areas of the subjects. there is no need to teach conceptualization at the point of arithmetic to a class. the thinkers will develop advanced methods on their own, as thinkers are prone to do
teaching, especially until late high school, cannot teach creativity and thinking really. you're dealing with a wide audience of students, and all you're going to end up doing is dumbing down the building blocks and socializing scores.
thinking at young ages is for your gifted kids, who have their own classes for that. thinking for advanced normal kids won't develop until high school at the earliest, and they can't be creative without a base level of understanding
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:50 am to shutterspeed
quote:
Did you retire by choice or felt yourself getting pushed out?
Math, Science and Special Ed teachers don't get pushed out unless they are caught selling dope during locker break.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:50 am to ChineseBandit58
In math, like everything else, you need conceptualization and memorization.
Gravitating to one method and leaving the other behind causes problems.
Gravitating to one method and leaving the other behind causes problems.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:51 am to Rex
quote:
but science and technological progress depend on the ability to THINK AND CONCEPTUALIZE rather than just to memorize, and the future competitiveness of this country depends on having people who can do so.
I think you're both right and wrong. We're pushing conceptualization WAY too early in schools before the basics are grasped. Students can't conceptualize what they don't have a firm foundation of.
Obviously we aren't going to solve the parent problem, which is probably the largest issue in school. But what we can do is change this culture of standardized testing that has absolutely killed education. We need to decide what things are valuable enough for students to learn to be successful in society, decide what that kind of success looks like, and then design a non-standardized assessment (think project or portfolio-oriented assessment) to evaluate it.
But you won't get as many nifty grafts and split-second data by doing that. All of the accountability proponents are going to have to understand and be comfortable with that.
This post was edited on 4/13/14 at 10:53 am
Posted on 4/13/14 at 10:57 am to shutterspeed
quote:
I think you're both right and wrong. We're pushing conceptualization WAY too early in schools before the basics are grasped. Students can't conceptualize what they don't have a firm foundation of.
reading is teh best example
you can't read written text, obviously, until you learn how to read that language
you can't analyze written text, until you read a lot and develop your reading skills, especially within the subject
these things take steps
Posted on 4/13/14 at 11:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
reading is teh best example
That reminds me. When the Dems called for public funding of computers for the poor kids in failing schools I thought "wait a minute... those kids are mostly illiterate. Computers are useless if you can't read or write."
If I were illiterate I'd go to trade school and learn to be a plumber and charge you $200 bucks an hour to fix your toilet.
Posted on 4/13/14 at 11:05 am to Zach
the societal "Gaps" are getting as absurd as dr. srangelove in how government is treating them.
there is a technology gap. it is growing. with the exponential developmental pace of computer technology, it will continue to grow faster. there is nothing government can do to stop this gap, short of going soviet and stopping the development altogether
there is a technology gap. it is growing. with the exponential developmental pace of computer technology, it will continue to grow faster. there is nothing government can do to stop this gap, short of going soviet and stopping the development altogether
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