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Message
re: 75th Anniversary of the Attack on Pearl Harbor
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:32 am to WhiskeyPapa
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:32 am to WhiskeyPapa
Well known picture of USS Pennsylvania in dry dock on 12/7/41.
DD's Downes and Cassin in the foreground.
1
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:38 am to TX Tiger
quote:
Isn't it interesting how they were all lined up like sitting ducks.
I wonder why that was and how it came to be?
I believe no one considered the idea that PH could be reached by any Jap task force. In the event, the 6 fleet carriers whose aircraft did the attack had a very small escort of other ships. All the IJN oiler assets assisted in refueling the task force to get it proximate to the Hawaiian Islands.
The IJN carrier force was called the Kido Butai.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:40 am to WhiskeyPapa
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:46 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:They just took us by surprise. Now where have I heard that excuse before?
Isn't it interesting how they were all lined up like sitting ducks.
I wonder why that was and how it came to be?
I believe no one considered the idea that PH could be reached by any Jap task force.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:47 am to ChewyDante
quote:
But the decision to go to war with the United States and Britain while still fighting the Chinese was idiotic.
They had no choice.
Absent US shipments of oil and scrap metal they would have to cut back on their efforts in China. That was impossible. The Japanese HAD TO ATTACK. They had to have especially the oil assets in Borneo to keep their fleet mobile.
Had the Japanese simply declared war on the US and maybe attacked us in the Philippines, many in America would have said, let them have it. We have no business there any way.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:49 am to TX Tiger
quote:
They just took us by surprise. Now where have I heard that excuse before?
You make a good point.
FDR was very alarmed at what the country might say about the Military being caught so flat-footed. Public opinion basically gave him and Gen. Marshall a pass.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:53 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:60 years later and nothing's changed.
They just took us by surprise. Now where have I heard that excuse before?
You make a good point.
FDR was very alarmed at what the country might say about the Military being caught so flat-footed. Public opinion basically gave him and Gen. Marshall a pass.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:53 am to TX Tiger
quote:
Isn't it interesting how they were all lined up like sitting ducks.
I wonder why that was and how it came to be
Also interesting to note that all of the Carriers were out on maneuvers.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:54 am to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
They had no choice.
Absent US shipments of oil and scrap metal they would have to cut back on their efforts in China. That was impossible. The Japanese HAD TO ATTACK. They had to have especially the oil assets in Borneo to keep their fleet mobile.
Had the Japanese simply declared war on the US and maybe attacked us in the Philippines, many in America would have said, let them have it. We have no business there any way.
Well their alternative was retreating from China, which was impossible because of the attitude and culture of the Japanese military.
It would have been a tremendous loss of face which, again, was culturally unacceptable. But they could have spared their empire and worked other arrangements if they had the will to do so. Of course, they didn't, and they were completely obliterated as a result.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 8:09 am to bencoleman
quote:
Also interesting to note that all of the Carriers were out on maneuvers.
The Japanese had pretty good intel on USN movements and deployments. They did have an agent surveiling the harbor. They knew the US BB's were usually back in port for the weekends.
The carriers were actually out doing something useful. The only two carriers available were USS Lexington and USS Enterprise. Enterprise was returning to PH after delivering VMF-211 to Wake Island and would have been in the harbor except for bad weather that delayed her.
USS Arizona was scheduled to leave for the 'States on 8 December.
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 8:13 am
Posted on 12/7/16 at 8:23 am to WhiskeyPapa
We salute you men and women who performed so valiantly in WW2.
Truly THE GREATEST GENERATION.
Truly THE GREATEST GENERATION.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 8:36 am to Vols&Shaft83
We atom bombed their asses
Posted on 12/7/16 at 9:39 am to bencoleman
quote:
Isn't it interesting how they were all lined up like sitting ducks.
I wonder why that was and how it came to be
Also interesting to note that all of the Carriers were out on maneuvers.
Also interesting that FDR fired Admiral Richardson for refusing to line them up like sitting ducks, and replaced him with Admiral Kimmel, who followed his orders to do so.
ETA: An interesting article
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 9:43 am
Posted on 12/7/16 at 10:04 am to TX Tiger
Your linked article is complete bullshite.
FDR's economic advisors told him that a United States of Europe under the Nazis would be devastating to the US Economy, where the unemployment rate was still 10% at the time of the attack on PH.
GERMANY was a type threat that the Japanese in no way resembled. Churchill wrote the night of the PH attack: "Japan will be ground into powder."
FDR always saw the Germans as the main threat. In the recent Ken Burns series on the Roosevelts he quotes one of FDR's advisors as saying that the attack on PH relieved everyone in FDR's circle from great anxiety in the sense that with the German declaration of war on the US -- they now knew the way forward.
Hitler did indeed tell his U-boat force to avoid confrontation with the USN, but when informed of the Japanese attack on PH, he clapped his hands with glee, even as his forces were freezing to death outside Moscow, and determined to declare war on the United States.
FDR's economic advisors told him that a United States of Europe under the Nazis would be devastating to the US Economy, where the unemployment rate was still 10% at the time of the attack on PH.
GERMANY was a type threat that the Japanese in no way resembled. Churchill wrote the night of the PH attack: "Japan will be ground into powder."
FDR always saw the Germans as the main threat. In the recent Ken Burns series on the Roosevelts he quotes one of FDR's advisors as saying that the attack on PH relieved everyone in FDR's circle from great anxiety in the sense that with the German declaration of war on the US -- they now knew the way forward.
Hitler did indeed tell his U-boat force to avoid confrontation with the USN, but when informed of the Japanese attack on PH, he clapped his hands with glee, even as his forces were freezing to death outside Moscow, and determined to declare war on the United States.
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 10:07 am
Posted on 12/7/16 at 10:14 am to TX Tiger
quote:
Also interesting that FDR fired Admiral Richardson for refusing to line them up like sitting ducks, and replaced him with Admiral Kimmel, who followed his orders to do so.
You are suggesting, I suppose, that FDR arranged for the BB's to be lined up as sitting ducks for the Japanese.
Richardson disagreed that the battle line should be relocated to the Hawaiian Islands and he was relieved for that.
It is nuts to think that FDR had any inkling that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor, or wished ill for the Navy.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 10:22 am to WhiskeyPapa
THE AIRCRAFT MEETING
On Monday, November 14, 1938 President Roosevelt summoned a number of key military advisers to what Eric Hammel has called possibly the most important single meeting in modern world history. The president wanted a large force of -offensive- airplanes. The Air Corps had 12 working strategic bombers and several hundred tactical bombers of dubious utility. FDR told his advisers he wanted 20,000 Army Air Corps aircraft in service and a capacity to build 24,000 a year. For the day these numbers were simply fantastic.
This is right after the British and French caved at Munich. FDR was focused on Europe not the Far East.
On Monday, November 14, 1938 President Roosevelt summoned a number of key military advisers to what Eric Hammel has called possibly the most important single meeting in modern world history. The president wanted a large force of -offensive- airplanes. The Air Corps had 12 working strategic bombers and several hundred tactical bombers of dubious utility. FDR told his advisers he wanted 20,000 Army Air Corps aircraft in service and a capacity to build 24,000 a year. For the day these numbers were simply fantastic.
This is right after the British and French caved at Munich. FDR was focused on Europe not the Far East.
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 10:27 am
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:08 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
WhiskeyPapa
Perhaps you aren't familiar with TXTiger. Everything is a plotted conspiracy and anyone who disagrees is a sheep.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:11 pm to Vols&Shaft83
Pearl Harbor: The Seeds and Fruit of Infamy
I'll just leave this illusion shattering book here. It's completely free.
I'll just leave this illusion shattering book here. It's completely free.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:16 pm to TX Tiger
quote:
Also interesting that FDR fired Admiral Richardson for refusing to line them up like sitting ducks, and replaced him with Admiral Kimmel, who followed his orders to do so.
Also interesting that his garrison commander and admiral were both clueless that negotiations had been broken, and that the US knew the Japs were going to initiate a war shortly after their ambassadors left DC for japan. Also interesting that the US cracked the jap crypto through the PURPLE MAGIC program, so they had immediate access to jap dip cables for may months prior to the end of negotiations. Also interesting that FDR terminated these two commanders despite tye fact that the incident was not their fault, and repeated attempts by both to reinforce hawaii were denied.
Also interesting that the investigation that uncovered this information is rarely if ever discussed.
Pearl Harbor: The Seeds and Fruit of Infamy
Also available in audio book on PODBEAN.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:47 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
Donald J. Trump ?@realDonaldTrump 1h1 hour ago
We pause today to remember the 2,403 American heroes who selflessly gave their lives at Pearl Harbor 75 years ago...
https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/posts/10158244280375725
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