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Message
re: Whiplash is very overrated imo....SPOILERS
Posted on 3/24/15 at 12:26 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Posted on 3/24/15 at 12:26 pm to Tiger Voodoo
That's fair, and I'm certainly not a fan of people ganging up on a poster who has a dissenting opinion just because its a dissenting opinion. I'm a pretty vocal dissenter on some sacred cows (Drive, There Will be Blood, all of of Saving Private Ryan aside from the opening sequence, the entire oeuvre of Wes Anderson, etc). I think people should defend their views, and I rather like people varying from "accepted wisdom" because it can take us to new places. I don't wish to tell someone that their experience is invalid. If you don't like a film, you don't like a film (though sometimes, you should give it a second chance).
I did feel like your list of complains read more like nitpicks, but your thoughtful reply made me go back and read your OP, and you are right, your argument is more that his actions are not rooted in his character. That's a legitimate criticism. It's not one I agree with, but it is perfectly fair.
I'm not going to go through the whole list, as someone already has and I largely agree with that post, but I will say that the film is largely telling a story of a character who is two things: brilliant and immature. It's not just that he's focused on becoming the Bird like in the story (and the cymbal toss was an on the nose call back to that story), it's that his obsessive focus on becoming a great player has stunted his development as a person.
Even among a bunch of music nerds, he's an outcast. He has no friends, and he torpedoes his budding relationship in the most condescending fashion possible. He lacks the wisdom or experience to fit the fulfilment of other people into his life. I like to say "Everyone is the Star of their own movie" to explain people's actions in real life, but for him... it's a one-man show. It's even more narcissistic. He hasn't figured out how to fit family and friends into his life.
It's why the final scene, while great, is also so emotionally devastating. It's not just the battle with his professor, it is him losing his father. He turns away from the love of his father and goes back out to play better than anyone ever has, and his dad sees the light go off.
As he said at the dinner table, he'd rather be dead at 27 yet be remembered than live, happily, to old age anonymously. His father sees that his son has made that choice. He's going to be a genius, he's going to be remembered, yet he's going to be miserable and likely destroyed before he turns 30.
I did feel like your list of complains read more like nitpicks, but your thoughtful reply made me go back and read your OP, and you are right, your argument is more that his actions are not rooted in his character. That's a legitimate criticism. It's not one I agree with, but it is perfectly fair.
I'm not going to go through the whole list, as someone already has and I largely agree with that post, but I will say that the film is largely telling a story of a character who is two things: brilliant and immature. It's not just that he's focused on becoming the Bird like in the story (and the cymbal toss was an on the nose call back to that story), it's that his obsessive focus on becoming a great player has stunted his development as a person.
Even among a bunch of music nerds, he's an outcast. He has no friends, and he torpedoes his budding relationship in the most condescending fashion possible. He lacks the wisdom or experience to fit the fulfilment of other people into his life. I like to say "Everyone is the Star of their own movie" to explain people's actions in real life, but for him... it's a one-man show. It's even more narcissistic. He hasn't figured out how to fit family and friends into his life.
It's why the final scene, while great, is also so emotionally devastating. It's not just the battle with his professor, it is him losing his father. He turns away from the love of his father and goes back out to play better than anyone ever has, and his dad sees the light go off.
As he said at the dinner table, he'd rather be dead at 27 yet be remembered than live, happily, to old age anonymously. His father sees that his son has made that choice. He's going to be a genius, he's going to be remembered, yet he's going to be miserable and likely destroyed before he turns 30.
3
Posted on 3/24/15 at 2:24 pm to Tiger Voodoo
Agreed.
1Birdman (and I didn´t ´dig´it)
2Nightcrawler and Whiplash in a dead heat
American Sniper (have yet to see, but won´t pay to see it)
Imitation Game (want to see)
quote:
Nightcrawler>> American Sniper > Imitation Game> Birdman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whiplash
1Birdman (and I didn´t ´dig´it)
2Nightcrawler and Whiplash in a dead heat
American Sniper (have yet to see, but won´t pay to see it)
Imitation Game (want to see)
This post was edited on 3/24/15 at 2:26 pm
Posted on 3/24/15 at 2:54 pm to Baloo
Edit: Meant for Voodoo not Baloo.
I also think it's your tone, you've eased up later in the thread, clearly, and you've put out more well thought opinions, but you started here:
And all the emoticons.
#1 - You seemingly mocked a film that people liked (and somewhat mocked the people who liked it), rather than carefully pointing out your critiques and just discussing the film...
#2 And then you INVITED people to "bash." You can't do that then complain about people ganging up on you, that's disingenuous. And hypocritical.
Based on #2, how can you agree with what LTM posts:
You created the very extremism that invited the extremist response.
You did apologize for the Subject, which probably wasn't the best start, and you've cleared up your points well, but that's where the muck in the middle comes from.
Oh and don't forget this lovely comment:
That's called mocking. Don't play coy.
quote:
I laid out some examples of why I didn't buy the story or main character as presented, and gave my opinion that the movie is overrated, admittedly a comment that simply begs for disagreement because most people understandably tend to assume I am saying that they specifically overrated it. I regret using that term in the Subject, and can only explain that I mean the work itself was in general given more praise than I would have assumed given the experience that I had watching it. I know that may be splitting hairs, but it is just meant to define where I rate the work compared to how it is more widely described.
I also think it's your tone, you've eased up later in the thread, clearly, and you've put out more well thought opinions, but you started here:
quote:
Whiplash is very overrated imo....SPOILERS
quote:
Man, I'm usually right in line with this board but good lord I can't for the life of me understand the love this movie gets here???
quote:
but the plot was borderline stupid with one of the least interesting or likable "protagonists" in an Oscar nominated film I've seen in a long time.
quote:
Bash away, but I just was shocked at how mediocre this was after all the awards and hype.
And all the emoticons.
#1 - You seemingly mocked a film that people liked (and somewhat mocked the people who liked it), rather than carefully pointing out your critiques and just discussing the film...
#2 And then you INVITED people to "bash." You can't do that then complain about people ganging up on you, that's disingenuous. And hypocritical.
Based on #2, how can you agree with what LTM posts:
quote:quote:
However, it leads to the inevitable backlash against the poster, particularly when that poster has his views reinforced by many others and a later viewer goes into the movie with a certain tint to his glasses only to be woefully disappointed. Or perhaps the movie simply isn't for him and he says so, but he gets shouted down from the rooftops so he instead calls it "overrated shite that I wouldn't see again even if it meant that my daughter had to be torn to pieces in front of me."
Extremism is met with extremism in all things and we end up with what is really a fairly idiotic thread that recurs on this board at least quarterly.
Excellent post. Thanks, you said it better than I did
You created the very extremism that invited the extremist response.
You did apologize for the Subject, which probably wasn't the best start, and you've cleared up your points well, but that's where the muck in the middle comes from.
Oh and don't forget this lovely comment:
quote:
Again, sorry I rustled the jimmies of the fanboys of the board's favorite trendy movie
That's called mocking. Don't play coy.
This post was edited on 3/24/15 at 2:58 pm
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:14 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Voodoo
quote:
Freauxzen
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:17 pm to CocomoLSU
Just calling it like I see it. No event here and I didn't really "gang up," I mean did anyone? Just because more people like the film than he does doesn't necessarily mean people ganged up. It just means his opinion is in the minority, and that's ok. Dissension is cool if there are valid reasons. How you dissent, yeah that does matter.
How differently would this thread have run if:
SUBJECT: Some Areas Where I think Whiplash could improve
Or even less Specific
SUBJECT: My Thoughts on Whiplash
And then do away with the extreme comments and emoticons. How about instead of this:
quote:
He's the most driven, obsessive drumming prodigy of all time who practices until he's soaking wet and his hands bleed ( ), yet oversleeps on the morning of his first day in the big league class,
You say this:
quote:
He's the most driven, obsessive drumming prodigy of all time who practices until his hand bleed. I get it. But would that kind of character really forget to get to class on time? Did I miss something in the film or did we not get an explanation?
Or instead of this:
quote:
Bash away, but I just was shocked at how mediocre this was after all the awards and hype.
You say:
quote:
I know my opinion might be in the minority, but let's talk about Neeman's character, as the underpinning of the film I'm not sure he was fully fleshed out or realistic and that makes me rethink the awards and hype.
This post was edited on 3/24/15 at 3:23 pm
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:26 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Just calling it like I see it. No event here and I didn't really "gang up," I mean did anyone? Just because more people like the film than he does doesn't necessarily mean people ganged up. It just means his opinion is in the minority, and that's ok. Dissension is cool if there are valid reasons. How you dissent, yeah that does matter.
I agree with that. And more times than not, there isn't a lot of groupthink or ganging up on this board (unlike other boards around here). Sure, there are fanboys and whatnot, but liking something that a large majority of people also like doesn't make someone a "fanboy" at all IMO. There are very few things I'd classify myself a fanboy of (SBTB maybe), but I honestly thought Whiplash was pretty fricking awesome. And I formed my own opinion on that based on my viewing of the film, and not because a lot of people on a message board told me.
And I don't need him to like it. Like you (and Baloo) said, disliking something is completely fine, as long as it's relatively valid and defendable. And while the initial post wasn't completely from a "This movie was stupid; it sucked because I said so" perspective, it was still fairly enciting, so to speak.
shite, I dislike my fair share of massively likable things (Seinfeld is a perfect example). Him not liking Whiplash is completely fine with me. I disagree with him that it's not very good, but there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, disagreeing on shite around here is one of the things that make this place tick.
ETA: I saw your edits. And while I won't sit here and tell him how he should or shouldn't post, he definitely could've worded things better if he wanted solid discourse instead of pushback.
This post was edited on 3/24/15 at 3:29 pm
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:33 pm to CocomoLSU
I will say what makes this place tick is CIVIL disagreement. More than any other board, the M/TV Board self-regulates itself the best and allows for dissenting opinion. Outside of the never ending DC/Marvel Fanboy War, most of the posters here relatively like one another, even when we disagree. Hell, particularly when we disagree.
This is probably the most civil, chill board on TD. Which leads to it having a pretty diverse set of opinions. It's pretty safe to like or dislike anything. I mean, you can't like something worse than Saved by the Bell, and plenty of people here LOVE that show.
This is probably the most civil, chill board on TD. Which leads to it having a pretty diverse set of opinions. It's pretty safe to like or dislike anything. I mean, you can't like something worse than Saved by the Bell, and plenty of people here LOVE that show.
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:34 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
I agree with that. And more times than not, there isn't a lot of groupthink or ganging up on this board (unlike other boards around here). Sure, there are fanboys and whatnot, but liking something that a large majority of people also like doesn't make someone a "fanboy" at all IMO. There are very few things I'd classify myself a fanboy of (SBTB maybe), but I honestly thought Whiplash was pretty fricking awesome. And I formed my own opinion on that based on my viewing of the film, and not because a lot of people on a message board told me.
And I don't need him to like it. Like you (and Baloo) said, disliking something is completely fine, as long as it's relatively valid and defendable. And while the initial post wasn't completely from a "This movie was stupid; it sucked because I said so" perspective, it was still fairly enciting, so to speak.
shite, I dislike my fair share of massively likable things (Seinfeld is a perfect example). Him not liking Whiplash is completely fine with me. I disagree with him that it's not very good, but there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, disagreeing on shite around here is one of the things that make this place tick.
Spot on. And we have a good group, so rejecting to a more accepted positive opinion should probably be handled differently IMO, and if you do, you're usually rewarded with a good all around discussion (which is what this evolved into later on). Inviting attacks, eh, not the best method of disagreement.
Heck I heard all the hype about Whiplash and thought it was the best movie of last year I had seen to that point. Again, that's not out of the realm of possibility.
People also must adjust to recency bias, not everyone does that automatically, so outside of a few films, and/or a few posters, I never take "greatest movie ever" talk seriously or anything close to it. People loved the heck out of Whiplash. Will they remember it in 5 years? I have no idea. Maybe. You have to have a solid filter of reality vs. excitement when it comes to modern fan reactions.
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:35 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
ETA: I saw your edits. And while I won't sit here and tell him how he should or shouldn't post, he definitely could've worded things better if he wanted solid discourse instead of pushback.
I will.
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:38 pm to Baloo
quote:
I will say what makes this place tick is CIVIL disagreement. More than any other board, the M/TV Board self-regulates itself the best and allows for dissenting opinion. Outside of the never ending DC/Marvel Fanboy War, most of the posters here relatively like one another, even when we disagree. Hell, particularly when we disagree.
Exactly. I always love my Lost conversations, regardless of whether or not I'll ever agree with the masses. And I always tend to look at thing differently. Who knows, maybe one day Cocomo will show me the light. Also not out of the realm of possibility.
Marvel/DC has cooled....mostly. That will ramp up exponentially in early May however. I can see it now...
quote:
This is probably the most civil, chill board on TD. Which leads to it having a pretty diverse set of opinions. It's pretty safe to like or dislike anything. I mean, you can't like something worse than Saved by the Bell, and plenty of people here LOVE that show.
Now you've gone and done it....
Posted on 3/24/15 at 3:41 pm to Freauxzen
quote:quote:quote:
However, it leads to the inevitable backlash against the poster, particularly when that poster has his views reinforced by many others and a later viewer goes into the movie with a certain tint to his glasses only to be woefully disappointed. Or perhaps the movie simply isn't for him and he says so, but he gets shouted down from the rooftops so he instead calls it "overrated shite that I wouldn't see again even if it meant that my daughter had to be torn to pieces in front of me."
Extremism is met with extremism in all things and we end up with what is really a fairly idiotic thread that recurs on this board at least quarterly.
Excellent post. Thanks, you said it better than I did
You created the very extremism that invited the extremist response.
I wasn't going to say anything, but yeah, this gave me a chuckle, too.
Posted on 3/24/15 at 4:13 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
quote:
Voodoo
quote:
Freauxzen
quote:
Freauxzen
Mea culpa sir. You're right, looking back at my OP, I definitely could have worded it in a more mature way, although honestly I don't think it was as antagonistic as you're making it out to be (the subject wasn't Whiplash is dogshit, and even included imo when saying it was overrated)
Still, I went back and read it again (I appreciate Baloo doing the same, and I'll respond to his well thought out post next), and it was clearly written right after the credits started rolling in the heat of my frustration and disappointment that the movie wasn't what I hoped it would be.
I will say though, me ending the post saying "Bash away, but...." isn't actually an invitation asking people to bash my opinion. It is anticipating it, and I'm sure you can see the difference.
As for the emoticons, you're the second person to mention it. Is five emoticons in a post that long over the top?? Serious question, I'm pretty not savvy when it comes to that stuff so I'll be sure to do that less in the future
er, haha??? As for LTM's post, this is what I agreed with:
quote:
Or perhaps the movie simply isn't for him and he says so, but he gets shouted down from the rooftops so he instead calls it "overrated shite that I wouldn't see again even if it meant that my daughter had to be torn to pieces in front of me."
Extremism is met with extremism in all things and we end up with what is really a fairly idiotic thread that recurs on this board at least quarterly.
I really was referring to the extreme praise I'd heard about the film here, and can now see that my OP was sort of written in anticipation of the backlash I assumed was coming, hence agreeing with his Extremism is met with extremism.
And the comment about the "rustled jimmies" you linked came well into the discussion after a poster was trying to belittle the conversation that had come up by calling my, imo very rational, response to a line by line criticism of my OP "weird". That is the "ganging up" I was referring to. I wasn't playing coy at all. That was just a pretty typical attempt that you see when someone can't respond to the points you're making, and tries to make you feel foolish for presenting a well thought out position that they disagree with, although again I agree with you that was how the OP should have been presented.
All your edits in the next post are spot on, I should have used them in the OP. I'd edit, but I'm not trying to hide my blame in what happened early in the thread. I completely agree, how you dissent does matter, and I wish I would have waited to post my thoughts instead of right after the movie when it was pretty much a stream of consciousness
quote:
And more times than not, there isn't a lot of groupthink or ganging up on this board (unlike other boards around here).
quote:
I will say what makes this place tick is CIVIL disagreement. More than any other board, the M/TV Board self-regulates itself the best and allows for dissenting opinion. Outside of the never ending DC/Marvel Fanboy War, most of the posters here relatively like one another, even when we disagree. Hell, particularly when we disagree.
This is probably the most civil, chill board on TD. Which leads to it having a pretty diverse set of opinions. It's pretty safe to like or dislike anything.
quote:
And we have a good group, so rejecting to a more accepted positive opinion should probably be handled differently IMO, and if you do, you're usually rewarded with a good all around discussion (which is what this evolved into later on).
Again, mea culpa. I'm not able to be on these boards nearly as much as I used to the past couple of years, so most of my posts tend to be trying to talk sense to the Rant when they are in meltdown mode (glutton for punishment I know), so sorry if I brought that exact mindset that I'm fighting over there, to here.
I really am a movie nerd, and like I said, I really don't consider myself someone that bashes anyone else's opinions as every piece of storytelling cuts everyone differently. Again, I think my OP was anticipating disaster, and unfortunately created it instead.
But once people started posting their own opinions, I tried to address them all respectfully, except when I felt someone was crossing the line of civility to me, like with the "weird" comment.
Thanks again for all the feedback, and I agree with what someone else posted, I'll be interested to see how people view Whiplash a few years down the road.
This post was edited on 3/24/15 at 4:16 pm
Posted on 3/24/15 at 4:31 pm to Baloo
quote:
but your thoughtful reply made me go back and read your OP, and you are right, your argument is more that his actions are not rooted in his character. That's a legitimate criticism. It's not one I agree with, but it is perfectly fair.
Again Baloo, thanks for taking the time to go back and see where I thought you misinterpreted where I was coming from. Even though I do agree with Freauxzen that my OP was without much tact, I was glad you could see that it wasn't "plot holes" I was criticizing, but mainly the character development through what I felt was some contrived plot devices.
quote:
Even among a bunch of music nerds, he's an outcast. He has no friends, and he torpedoes his budding relationship in the most condescending fashion possible.
True, and that's exactly why I've pointed out that the scenes with the girl felt like the most honest to me. I get that he's having this showdown with Simmons, and while those may have been some of the more entertainingscenes, they weren't what really pulled me in.
Unlike Cocomo, I never had any doubt whatsoever that he was going to succeed and nail "Whiplash". I just didn't.
I really wanted to see how his life off of the stage would change based on what was happening on it. We really only got 2 or 3 scenes with the girl, and the one family dinner scene. Virtually everything else seemed to be him running around or lashing out in response to Simmons' tirades.
That is what makes me want to see the original script. I wonder how much of this took on a life of it's own as Simmons owned every scene he was in, and how much was Teller perhaps deciding to try to make his character match Simmons' intensity and bravado rather than actually figuring out how a prodigy would truly respond in that situation.
Again, Social Network is my favorite film of the past decade, and I found Eisenberg's performance, as well as Cumberbatch's in Imitation, so much more honest and believable in similar stories of a misunderstood savant with so much talent that those around him simply can't comprehend.
That's not to compare the roles or films, it's just the easiest way I can put into words to show how I would imagine a character like Teller's developing on screen throughout a film.
quote:
As he said at the dinner table, he'd rather be dead at 27 yet be remembered than live, happily, to old age anonymously. His father sees that his son has made that choice. He's going to be a genius, he's going to be remembered, yet he's going to be miserable and likely destroyed before he turns 30.
That, is a deep arse cut that I admit I didn't feel while watching. It makes me appreciate why you feel as strongly as you do, but only enhances my frustration. I wanted more of that.
Thanks again Baloo, like I said before, I always respect the perspective you bring to these threads.
I remember well being in the foxhole with you during those TWBB threads years ago, though you probably don't, but it's cool to see how we can see eye to eye so closely on movies like that or Drive while we can have totally different experiences with a movie like SPR or Whiplash.
It really is fascinating, and what film and storytelling is all about.
This post was edited on 3/24/15 at 4:36 pm
Posted on 3/24/15 at 4:40 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Again, I think my OP was anticipating disaster, and unfortunately created it instead.
Rest assured, you anticipated correctly. The fury of this board, as much as it likes to pretend to be judicious in its righteousness, would have descended upon you like that of a vengeful mother lioness having just witness her cubs mauled by a jackal. When the notion gets into the "groupthink" mind of the many on this board, it is a stubborn one to rub out or even question without receiving a massive, collective slap to the face. Trust me.
Posted on 3/24/15 at 5:09 pm to Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Tiger Voodoo
quote:
Freauxzen
now kith
Posted on 3/24/15 at 6:19 pm to Tiger Voodoo
I fricking LOVED 'Whiplash'... Simmons killed it IMO. Teller played a strong character, but I agree with you that he was a hopeless ne'er-do-well who couldn't seem to get right...
Do you think he "lost" the sheet music on purpose?
Secondly, 'Birdman' was boring as shite. I LOVE 'Imitation Game' and can't watch movies like 'American Sniper'...
Do you think he "lost" the sheet music on purpose?
Secondly, 'Birdman' was boring as shite. I LOVE 'Imitation Game' and can't watch movies like 'American Sniper'...
Posted on 3/27/15 at 11:46 am to yankeeundercover
quote:
Do you think he "lost" the sheet music on purpose?
Honestly, I wish the filmmaker had left some ambiguity for that possibility to be there. It would have made for an intriguing aspect of Teller's character.
But as presented on screen, the only possible explanation for what happened to the sheets is that apparently Simmons, or a janitor, is either Ethan Hunt or The Flash.
Posted on 3/28/15 at 10:32 am to Baloo
quote:
it is him losing his father. He turns away from the love of his father
Say what??? That didn't happen.
And I agree with the OP. This movie was totally dependent upon a story which was both weak and contrived. I only continued to watch it because I loved the Fletcher character.
This was not a particularly good year for movies, I'm afraid. Birdman and Boyhood were also weak.
eta: Besides all that, I'm not a fan of drum solos. That last part of the movie was BOOOORRRRRRRRRRRINNNNGGGGGGG.
This post was edited on 3/28/15 at 11:07 am
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