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Message
re: Dell Demps Appreciation Thread
Posted on 2/22/15 at 10:56 am to corndeaux
Posted on 2/22/15 at 10:56 am to corndeaux
quote:
Holiday and Gordon are just bad injury luck. Evans is a problem though; I don't think it's a coincidence he has played his best when one or both of the other guards have been out.
Monty has had Evans for almost 2 years as his one constant of the 3 guards and only very recently has Evans been playing the type of ball we need from him. That's on Dell? And Tyreke's best ball has been playing with a healthy Gordon. I don't think it's an indictment on him that he isn't a little lost splitting guard duties with Jrue in Monty's system.
2
Posted on 2/22/15 at 11:47 am to ShamelessPel
Fitting all three of Holiday, Gordon, and Evans (each after signing a $40M+ contract) is a challenge even for a good coach. Monty ain't that. And I agree on Monty's system being a problem.
Evans has looked most comfortable starting, either at the 2 or the 1. His best ball last season came after Holiday and then Gordon were injured (and Monty finally decided it was better to start him than Roberts). This season he's looked good filling in for Gordon and now Holiday. I remember plenty of chatter about how good an Evans/Holiday combo was last season. Now the chatter is an Evans/Gordon combo. There's just not enough space for all 3 guards. Some of that blame goes to Monty, but the majority goes to Demps. Getting 3 ball dominant guards to play for a coach that runs a ball pounding system is a bit of a miss from a GM.
Evans has looked most comfortable starting, either at the 2 or the 1. His best ball last season came after Holiday and then Gordon were injured (and Monty finally decided it was better to start him than Roberts). This season he's looked good filling in for Gordon and now Holiday. I remember plenty of chatter about how good an Evans/Holiday combo was last season. Now the chatter is an Evans/Gordon combo. There's just not enough space for all 3 guards. Some of that blame goes to Monty, but the majority goes to Demps. Getting 3 ball dominant guards to play for a coach that runs a ball pounding system is a bit of a miss from a GM.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 11:51 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
Monty has had Evans for almost 2 years as his one constant of the 3 guards and only very recently has Evans been playing the type of ball we need from him. That's on Dell? And Tyreke's best ball has been playing with a healthy Gordon. I don't think it's an indictment on him that he isn't a little lost splitting guard duties with Jrue in Monty's system.
Dude, that is Tyreke. That's how he played before getting here and he's the same here. You're basically blaming Monty for not molding a ball of lead into a platinum engagement ring.
Monty didn't make Tyreke an inconsistent, low IQ player. That is what he is and it was fairly well-known around the league. Dell traded valuable assets and cap space for that.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 11:56 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I think the real problem might have been what they wanted and what they could afford were very different.
Which is a problem in a rebuild. I get ownership might have tied their hands, but cashing out to fill your blank canvass with pieces you don't really want is dumb.
quote:
Again, the disconnect might have been more budgetary than philosophical.
I don't know. Demps has talked about getting multiple ball handlers to run an offense. Monty runs a scheme that primarily has one ball handler pound for most of the shot clock. I've yet to see much of a vision for incorporating the talents of Holiday, Evans, and Gordon. Some of that is on the players, but I haven't seen much structure to maximize their talents.
Monty has tried to run a scrambling, switching defense. Demps has given him almost no players capable of doing that; either sub 6'5" guards or immobile bigs. That seems like a stubborn coach, but they have not ever really gone after the big wings you need to run that system.
quote:
Only because this seems like the type of player Monty would ride way too hard
Exactly my worry. Especially now with Anderson and Davis out, there is no doubt in my mind we would have seen at least 15MPG of Perkins/Asik (flashbacks to Ajinca/Steimsma
). With health, I still doubt Monty would be smart enough to rarely play him, but I could buy what you're talking about in terms of vet leadershipPosted on 2/22/15 at 1:41 pm to corndeaux
See I think we have the pieces we need to make a run. Our current players just need to get healthy, play a little longer together, maybe get a different coach, add a vet or two, and another shooter. One guy I'd love if he gets bought out is Brandon Bass.
Lets say the Celtics buyout Brandon Bass...what would the Pels have to do to bring him home? Do we sign him for next to nothing? How does that work?
Lets say the Celtics buyout Brandon Bass...what would the Pels have to do to bring him home? Do we sign him for next to nothing? How does that work?
Posted on 2/22/15 at 2:17 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Monty has tried to run a scrambling, switching defense. Demps has given him almost no players capable of doing that; either sub 6'5" guards or immobile bigs. That seems like a stubborn coach, but they have not ever really gone after the big wings you need to run that system.
Trevor Ariza was considered a bad contract under Monty and we had to eat Rashard's contract to give him away. That is essentially the exact wing you are asking for. I have seen Monty's defense look gorgeous at times this year post Dante/QPon and completely ridiculous most times. Monty asked for that "immobile big". He wanted a guy that could rebound and defend the paint and Demps bet on him knowing what he was doing and lost.
The height is overrated to an extent btw. Our guys aren't getting backed down, posted up, bully balled, or shot over. Evans is massive for a PG. There aren't a ton of wings out there that can guard 4s and 5s and if that's the goal/sticking point currently than Monty is an effing moron. Any of our 3 guards can limit 3s and oddly enough the biggest of the 3 (Tyreke) is the one I have the least confidence in doing that.
QPon/Dante are not the offensive powerhouses you'd want, but our defense still looks like crap corn. You mention the big defensive wings. We have 2 now. Why do we still suck on that end of the floor? I'm sorry. You mention a system. I don't see a system. I see aimlessness. You are saying Monty is to stubborn to change his system. This isn't a criticism. I honestly want to know where the current personnel is failing if Monty refuses to run a different system?
Posted on 2/22/15 at 3:24 pm to ShamelessPel
I liked Ariza (and Okafor). He was miscast in NO though. The trade was more about clearing the decks for the post Paul era than an indictment on Ariza. It was a great move for a team in an obvious rebuild.
Now, I would be happy swapping him into one of the salary slots the 3 guards currently occupy.
That's sort of my point. They need a guy like that and they sat on their hands this summer. No idea who they could or should have looked at, but we all knew Babbitt, Salmons, and Miller were not the answer. Like I said, Demps deserves credit for getting Cunningham and QPon for nothing and less than nothing. Nice moves.
I'm not talking about Asik, though it's ludicrous how little Monty plays him at times after loudly complaining this summer about a need for a 5. I'm talking about Steimsma, Ajinca, and Smiht. Much of this is on Monty for stupidly asking these guys (and Anderson) to continue to do things they just can't do. Who would have thought Robin Lopez would be a very good rim protector after watching him with the Pels? That's part of the disconnect I'm seeing; square pegs into round holes.
We'll have to agree to disagree. You rate the ability of this team to switch much more highly than I. It makes more sense now with QPon, but the constant switching with this roster just kills me. The personnel isn't there athletically or mentally. The Warriors and Bucks are effective playing that way because they have the defenders (and the coaching) to make it work. The Pels just don't.
I agree 100%. Monty should be in big trouble for how pitiful his defense has been. He has an elite rim protecting and rebounding 5, he had a premier on ball defender, and he has the love child of Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. That they can't be better than bottom 10 is embarrassing.
My thing isn't that Demps is awful or has made awful moves. Like I said in an earlier post, I just don't feel that he and Monty share the same vision. If I had to pick a guy to keep, it's Demps easily. But if your coach wants to run certain systems, as a GM you either get guys you believe can play that way or get your coach to change his systems. IMO from the very cheap seats, neither one of those things have happened and Demps does deserve some blame for that.
Now, I would be happy swapping him into one of the salary slots the 3 guards currently occupy.
quote:
I have seen Monty's defense look gorgeous at times this year post Dante/QPon
That's sort of my point. They need a guy like that and they sat on their hands this summer. No idea who they could or should have looked at, but we all knew Babbitt, Salmons, and Miller were not the answer. Like I said, Demps deserves credit for getting Cunningham and QPon for nothing and less than nothing. Nice moves.
quote:
Monty asked for that "immobile big"
I'm not talking about Asik, though it's ludicrous how little Monty plays him at times after loudly complaining this summer about a need for a 5. I'm talking about Steimsma, Ajinca, and Smiht. Much of this is on Monty for stupidly asking these guys (and Anderson) to continue to do things they just can't do. Who would have thought Robin Lopez would be a very good rim protector after watching him with the Pels? That's part of the disconnect I'm seeing; square pegs into round holes.
quote:
The height is overrated to an extent btw
We'll have to agree to disagree. You rate the ability of this team to switch much more highly than I. It makes more sense now with QPon, but the constant switching with this roster just kills me. The personnel isn't there athletically or mentally. The Warriors and Bucks are effective playing that way because they have the defenders (and the coaching) to make it work. The Pels just don't.
quote:
Why do we still suck on that end of the floor? I'm sorry. You mention a system. I don't see a system. I see aimlessness. You are saying Monty is to stubborn to change his system
I agree 100%. Monty should be in big trouble for how pitiful his defense has been. He has an elite rim protecting and rebounding 5, he had a premier on ball defender, and he has the love child of Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. That they can't be better than bottom 10 is embarrassing.
quote:
I honestly want to know where the current personnel is failing if Monty refuses to run a different system?
My thing isn't that Demps is awful or has made awful moves. Like I said in an earlier post, I just don't feel that he and Monty share the same vision. If I had to pick a guy to keep, it's Demps easily. But if your coach wants to run certain systems, as a GM you either get guys you believe can play that way or get your coach to change his systems. IMO from the very cheap seats, neither one of those things have happened and Demps does deserve some blame for that.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 3:32 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Cole
Holiday
Pondexter
Cunningham
AD
for about 5 minutes a game just to wear out the other team's starters.
not following.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 3:39 pm to gotiger
Demps has done well. We just need people to be healthy and some good coaching.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 3:40 pm to PortCityTiger24
The first 4 all play hustle, pesky defense, and while I wouldn't call AD pesky, he usually makes his guy work to get a shot off. Not to mention how they'd run in transition. Run a 40 Minutes of Hell type of defense with those guys, against most teams it would take more out of the other team than our team.
Remember against, I think Atlanta, they went hard after Jimmer and just harassed him getting up the court to the point that Monty had to put a starter back in sooner than he wanted to? That's the kind of thing we can do now that we didn't have the personnel at the beginning of the year to do.
Remember against, I think Atlanta, they went hard after Jimmer and just harassed him getting up the court to the point that Monty had to put a starter back in sooner than he wanted to? That's the kind of thing we can do now that we didn't have the personnel at the beginning of the year to do.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 3:52 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
The height is overrated to an extent btw. Our guys aren't getting backed down, posted up, bully balled, or shot over. Evans is massive for a PG.
Evans is also slow laterally and gets abused if he tries to front a quick guard. He is too short to defend legit 3s, too.
quote:
Any of our 3 guards can limit 3s
Not a 3 worth a shite. Gordon is the beSt option, but he is wayyyy too short to defend the likes of Lebron, Melo, Lebron. That's why they had to use Babbitt to defend them.
Posted on 2/22/15 at 3:57 pm to ShamelessPel
Here is Hinkie's post trade deadline presser
Easy to mock Philly because what they are doing is unprecedented and a little nuts. But there is a lot of logic to what he says in how they look at team building. The context part and the way he talks about Brown are 2 things that also stand out to me. Just a fascinating listen at how Philly is thinking (at least publicly).
Easy to mock Philly because what they are doing is unprecedented and a little nuts. But there is a lot of logic to what he says in how they look at team building. The context part and the way he talks about Brown are 2 things that also stand out to me. Just a fascinating listen at how Philly is thinking (at least publicly).
Posted on 2/22/15 at 4:07 pm to corndeaux
quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree. You rate the ability of this team to switch much more highly than I. It makes more sense now with QPon, but the constant switching with this roster just kills me. The personnel isn't there athletically or mentally. The Warriors and Bucks are effective playing that way because they have the defenders (and the coaching) to make it work. The Pels just don't.
I should probably clarify what I mean as this is probably the dumbest sounding statement in my post out of context. We should be asking the guards to go under picks, daring them to shoot jumpers, and harassing the bigger ball handlers if stuck on 3s. It's ridiculous to see Davis guarding PGs so much up top. Monty relies on Davis' ability to guard everyone 1-5 1 on 1 way too much. We should be going under screens, daring them to shoot jumpers and funneling drivers into an unholy tandem of Davis/Asik. A lot of our paint issues are the result of Asik helping while Davis is hanging out on the perimeter on a switch. There's just too much height and we are allowing easy dunks / offensive rebounds. A taller 3 doesn't fix these fundamental flaws.
My other point with the height is that Evans and Gordon are fricking bulldogs and I've seen them make some 4s look soft as charmin this year by not being able to abuse them by getting position and backing them down in the post. The 5s are a different matter. Again though, the difference between the 3 defender being able to guard a 4 or a 5 isn't that much better than those 2.
I also tend to think that there aren't that many offensive 3s that can take contested jumpers with a Jrue/Gordon type having a hand up in their face. It's not like small forwards come in here and dominate the Pels. Our biggest issues without Jrue have been containing PGs.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 7:09 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
We should be asking the guards to go under picks, daring them to shoot jumpers, and harassing the bigger ball handlers if stuck on 3s. It's ridiculous to see Davis guarding PGs so much up top. Monty relies on Davis' ability to guard everyone 1-5 1 on 1 way too much. We should be going under screens, daring them to shoot jumpers and funneling drivers into an unholy tandem of Davis/Asik. A lot of our paint issues are the result of Asik helping while Davis is hanging out on the perimeter on a switch.
Agree completely. Smart teams can get matchups they want every single time because they know exactly what the Pels will do. Harden v Rivers, Butler v Holiday, etc.
The Pels just don't have the mental aspect to scramble. Some of that is on the players, but some of that is on the coaching. I can't think of too many teams that have a better 3 man defensive trio in Jrue, Davis, and Asik. Some other pieces aren't good, but worse than what the Sixers trot out every night? Just embarrassing that they haven't been better on defense with those 3.
Posted on 2/23/15 at 5:48 pm to corndeaux
This from the MSB drives me nuts
Data isn't the be all, end all. The questions you ask and how you interpret the stats are more important than anything else.
But these are tools that can help (sometimes confirming a belief, others reversing). Not blending all the available information together at your disposal is willful ignorance.
quote:
Still, it's challenging to find examples of how analytics have penetrated New Orleans' decision-making, and sources confirm that GM Dell Demps and coach Monty Williams are not engaged in incorporating advanced stats.
Data isn't the be all, end all. The questions you ask and how you interpret the stats are more important than anything else.
But these are tools that can help (sometimes confirming a belief, others reversing). Not blending all the available information together at your disposal is willful ignorance.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 8:43 am to ShamelessPel
"Our biggest issues without Jrue have been containing PGs."
Amen to that. We have been ripped at times.
Amen to that. We have been ripped at times.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 8:46 am to ShamelessPel
I know this thread went in different directions, with the criticism of Monty and Demps - much of which I agree with - but I do want to give some credit where it is due:
Getting Norris Cole for what we gave to get him is oustanding.
Getting Norris Cole for what we gave to get him is oustanding.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 8:57 am to N.O. via West-Cal
Demps has been well above average in his small moves while he's been here. It's the bigger moves that people question. Although to be fair the injuries make it really hard to assess the moves. I think most of us feel pretty confident that this team can go toe to toe with any team if we're at full strength. We may not win a series vs. Golden State or any Western team that has home court advantage over us, but we'd at least push it to 6 or 7, and if you give us the home court advantage we probably win many of the matchups.
This post was edited on 2/24/15 at 8:58 am
Posted on 2/24/15 at 9:04 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Demps has been well above average in his small moves while he's been here. It's the bigger moves that people question. Although to be fair the injuries make it really hard to assess the moves. I think most of us feel pretty confident that this team can go toe to toe with any team if we're at full strength. We may not win a series vs. Golden State or any Western team that has home court advantage over us, but we'd at least push it to 6 or 7, and if you give us the home court advantage we probably win many of the matchups.
Demps' in-season adjustments have pretty much saved the season with these injuries. We had 2 additions start last night and a 3rd playing heavy minutes off the bench on his 3rd day with the team.
A healthy Pels would scare the crap out of anyone in the playoffs minus GSW. That matchup is a nightmare.
Posted on 2/24/15 at 9:16 am to ShamelessPel
When is Goatbrook leaving OKC? He has to look at AD and know that he and AD would be a near perfect, and one of the most unstoppable, pairs in NBA history. FACT.
Get it done Loomis.
(KD would work, too.)
Get it done Loomis.
(KD would work, too.)
This post was edited on 2/24/15 at 9:17 am
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