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re: Marco Rubio & the Band: Want To Destroy Obama On Cuba
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:18 am to TOKEN
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:18 am to TOKEN
this is all a bunch of foolishness
the leadership of shite is still banking that being anti-obama on eveerything is a gold mine. they're wrong on this issue
i get rubio's issue/interest, but they should leave him hanging on this one. they all look like a bunch of fricking idiot-assholes
the leadership of shite is still banking that being anti-obama on eveerything is a gold mine. they're wrong on this issue
i get rubio's issue/interest, but they should leave him hanging on this one. they all look like a bunch of fricking idiot-assholes
0
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:18 am to bamarep
quote:
IMO, Rubio is the only one qualified to speak on this due to his parents coming from there
That would make his parents qualified not him.
quote:
The rest are just blowhards trying to stir up the base
Yes they are
quote:
He's not too good at this negotiating thing.
No he isn't but most professional sports teams aren't either.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:23 am to TOKEN
You know, during apartheid no other countries, including the US, would do business with South Africa. We stood up against a dictatorship that forcefully silenced protestors. These protestors, at that time (mandela) were communists.
It wasn't until the Apartheid regime was ousted did normalized relations occur.
So, why are we normalizing relations with Cuba when they have shown no such effort to stop subjugating their own people? We are essentially rewarding the totalitarian Cuban dictatorship because why? They released a prisoner they tortured for years in exchange for 3 spies from Cuba? Does that seem like a fair trade to anyone? I'm glad we got the guy back, but they brutally tortured that guy. While he was in captivity he lost 100 lbs and the sight in one of his eyes. Meanwhile, the Cuban people have not felt freedom since before the takeover by the communists. But maybe thats the key. Obama will do his best to ensure we have diplomatic ties with brutal communist regimes. We all know the administrations heros are anti-west anti-capitalists such as Mao, Chavez, Guverra, Castro, etc...
I agree with Rubio. Until the people of Cuba are free, do not "normalize relations". Do you honestly think after nearly 60 years of a brutal dictatorship, that the Castro regime will say, "you know what, lets let the people keep the commerce they have with the US. The same US we tried to nuke in the 60's."
And why do some one here want it? Cigars? Casinos?
If there were assurances that the dictatorship would crumble because of this, i might change my tune, but the funny thing about dictators, is that they only want power over their own people. And the only way to end a dictatorship is by revolution, assassination, or crippling economic sanctions.
Maybe i'm wrong, maybe someone on here can convince me otherwise, but i don't see this as a good thing. I see it as us capitulating to more terrorists and making the murderers the victims yet again.
If we normalize relations with Cuba, why not North Korea???
It wasn't until the Apartheid regime was ousted did normalized relations occur.
So, why are we normalizing relations with Cuba when they have shown no such effort to stop subjugating their own people? We are essentially rewarding the totalitarian Cuban dictatorship because why? They released a prisoner they tortured for years in exchange for 3 spies from Cuba? Does that seem like a fair trade to anyone? I'm glad we got the guy back, but they brutally tortured that guy. While he was in captivity he lost 100 lbs and the sight in one of his eyes. Meanwhile, the Cuban people have not felt freedom since before the takeover by the communists. But maybe thats the key. Obama will do his best to ensure we have diplomatic ties with brutal communist regimes. We all know the administrations heros are anti-west anti-capitalists such as Mao, Chavez, Guverra, Castro, etc...
I agree with Rubio. Until the people of Cuba are free, do not "normalize relations". Do you honestly think after nearly 60 years of a brutal dictatorship, that the Castro regime will say, "you know what, lets let the people keep the commerce they have with the US. The same US we tried to nuke in the 60's."
And why do some one here want it? Cigars? Casinos?
If there were assurances that the dictatorship would crumble because of this, i might change my tune, but the funny thing about dictators, is that they only want power over their own people. And the only way to end a dictatorship is by revolution, assassination, or crippling economic sanctions.
Maybe i'm wrong, maybe someone on here can convince me otherwise, but i don't see this as a good thing. I see it as us capitulating to more terrorists and making the murderers the victims yet again.
If we normalize relations with Cuba, why not North Korea???
This post was edited on 12/19/14 at 8:25 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:25 am to rbdallas
quote:
like we are opening up to North Korea and Iran ..
really ???
We should. It is difficult to crush a regime from without via isolation because any measures to do so only make the regime look justified in their hard-line stance. By being open with them and flooding them with the full power of the free market, the people themselves will eventually demand freedom and capitalism, and the regime will be too weak to stop it. You might point to China and say that it has only strengthened the regime, and you would be right...for now. However, China is already seeing the cracks form in their empire. It is slowly fracturing from within as the different ethnic and cultural groups in China demand more representation, local control, and freedom, and now have more economic power to demand it. Within 20 years, China will fracture into several states, many of which will be much more capitalist and democratic.
It was not isolation and armaments that broke the Soviet Union, it was economics. It will not be some grand conquista by the Cuban Exiles that will free Cuba from the Castro regime, it will be capitalism giving the Cuban people the power to demand freedom for themselves.
Normalizing relations can only be good for the United States and for the Cuban people.
This post was edited on 12/19/14 at 8:33 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:31 am to BugAC
quote:
And why do some one here want it? Cigars? Casinos?
now the truth...in many case cases people just want the Casinos (which do not exist), the Cigars, the beaches and what the THINK, because of the distance, will be cheap travel..not so.
round trip airfare between Miami and Cuba is about $ 425 + or - and goes to about $ 1000 + during high season.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:32 am to kingbob
quote:
China is already seeing the cracks form in their empire. It is slowly fracturing from within as the different ethnic and cultural groups in China demand more representation, local control, and freedom, and now have more economic power to demand it. Within 20 years, China will fracture into several states, many of which will be fully capitalist.
I think China is fracturing because they don't have the economic power that they try to show off. They have spent billions on their "capital" cities, like Beijing. But the majority of China does not live there. They live outside in the economically depressed areas. They are suffering the same fate of Soviet Russia. They are outspending themselves and their currency is being propped up. I agree they will fall.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:33 am to rbdallas
quote:
now the truth...in many case cases people just want the Casinos (which do not exist), the Cigars, the beaches and what the THINK, because of the distance, will be cheap travel..not so.
I would like to think peoples motivations for relations with Cuba are greater than cigars and vacation spots, but i haven't heard it yet. I'm interested in listening to what Cuba can provide us that would benefit America.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:36 am to BugAC
quote:
I would like to think peoples motivations for relations with Cuba are greater than cigars and vacation spots, but i haven't heard it yet. I'm interested in listening to what Cuba can provide us that would benefit America.
Cheap sugar, new markets for goods, classic car parts, market for baseball and baseball prospects, tourism
What do you have against bringing freedom to a group of people (especially when we don't have to fight for it)? Is freedom so repulsive that people who live 90 miles from America don't deserve it when all it takes is a simple "yea" or "nay"?
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:39 am to BugAC
I would like to think peoples motivations for relations with Cuba are greater than cigars
and vacation spots, but i haven't heard it yet
that would be nice, but unfortunately, most people are in the What's In It For Me mode.
. I'm interested in listening to what Cuba can provide us that would benefit America.
...me too
Most people do not realize that the Castro family has allowed the Cuban people to live this lifestyle while putting away BILLIONS for themselves.
The charade of the Cuban military in Angola to help Africans was just that..it was a way to MINE and GET DIAMONDS, which were then exchanged with COLUMBIA for drugs and transported/supplied to the US.
whatever money goes to Cuba, will only help the citizens thru TIPS given, or what they may be able to steal (at great risk) "off the top"
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:48 am to BugAC
quote:
So, why are we normalizing relations with Cuba when they have shown no such effort to stop subjugating their own people?
Obama is a sympathizer of Castro and has always been...not my words.. Obama's words.
the contents of the LINK where Obama said he admired Castro and Chavez has mysteriously disappeared.
LINK
here is a link where he sided with them in ref to Honduras: LINK
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:53 am to kingbob
quote:
Cheap sugar
Are our sugar prices outrageous? Wouldn't this negatively impact our local sugar providers, mainly Louisiana?
quote:
classic car parts, market for baseball and baseball prospects, tourism
Thats a little short sited in terms of a complete policy change don't you think?
quote:
What do you have against bringing freedom to a group of people (especially when we don't have to fight for it)? Is freedom so repulsive that people who live 90 miles from America don't deserve it when all it takes is a simple "yea" or "nay"?
Exactly how will this give freedom to their citizens? Has the Castro regime announced anything that would lead you to believe they will give their people freedom? There are no indications that the regime will give up total control over that country. If there were signs of it, i'd be all for it. But nothing is there to say that Castro won't exploit this into further subjugating their people and ensuring the regime receives the lions share of this deal.
The infrastructure of Cuba is completely gone. Highways, bridges, buildings, utilities, etc... all need a hefty upgrade. Do you believe the Castro Government will all of a sudden be good guys?
An argument many are making is that the commerce from the US will inspire the Cuban people to take back their country, as they get more freedom. I hope that is true. And if so then i will gladly admit my thoughts on this are incorrect. But these people have been dominated by Castro for so many years, that i don't believe they have the fight in them to revolt. And revolt is the only way, unless the next dictator moves to put the power back in the hands of the people, which i don't see Raul doing.
Another thing is i don't see anything from the Cuban side on this. Are there Cuban leaders willing to stand up to the regime? Are there signs that the Cuban regime is beginning to wilt? Are there realistic signs that show Cuba can be free? This is an honest question. I haven't seen anything, but maybe i'm not looking in the right places.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:56 am to BugAC
If the country is opened for investment, then the money will flow. Yes, it will first go to the elite, but them to the people. Once the people get a taste of capitalism to the point that they can afford goods beyond basic necessities, they will demand more rights for themselves, they will demand more say in how they are governed. The free market destroys dictatorships from within because it gives the people leverage over the government thanks to purchasing power.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:59 am to rbdallas
quote:
Obama is a sympathizer of Castro and has always been...not my words.. Obama's words.
Well i haven't really touched on that, but i think we all know Obama's motivations here. It has nothing to do with free trade and freeing the Cuban people. Obama's idols are Mao Tse Tung, Che Gueverra, Fidel Castro, and Hugo Chavez. Why? They were all anti-west, anti-colonialist, anti-capitalists. Its all in Obama's books.
I believe Obama's motivations for this are simple:
Deflect from the current topics. If you haven't notices, after every single scandal breaks from this white house, something else magically appears a week later that allows the media to focus on that issue, rather than the scandals. Hell, Scott Pele' did a piece from Cuba on the evening news a day after the announcement talking about how all of the Cuban people want this, and trying to make connections with Obama and Cuba, to Reagan and the fall of the Soviets. It was disgusting. The complete blowjob from CBS over this is absolutely disgusting.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:08 am to kingbob
quote:
Once the people get a taste of capitalism to the point that they can afford goods beyond basic necessities, they will demand more rights for themselves, they will demand more say in how they are governed. The free market destroys dictatorships from within because it gives the people leverage over the government thanks to purchasing power.
I agree the free market could help, but thats only if the regime allows the free market to operate under somewhat lax control. My fear, is that all this will do, is create a larger, more dominant Communist regime. Castro is smart, and i don't believe for one second, that he won't try to manage the new commerce from day 1 and ensure no one attains too much power. Now maybe, the influx of capital will be too great for a regime that is used to their amount of control they already have, to manage. And capital will flow throughout the country almost unchecked. Then I think we can see real change in Cuba.
In order for this to work, in my opinion, 1 of 2 things have to happen.
1) The trade with Cuba is so overwhelming that the regime can not control it, forcing them to concede to a partially capitalistic type economy. Once that economy becomes more established and more trade grows, then can it become a complete free market economy.
2) A new regime leader puts aside the power and allows for free elections after seeing the influx of commerce and how it can not be controlled. The thing with this is, the Castro's have murdered so many people and punished so many of their citizens, i don't see this happening while either Fidel or Raul are alive. So it would basically have to be a revolution spurred by the chance of economic freedom, and the installation of a new government.
(forgive me if #2 argues against itself, as i type, i am thinking more through this.)
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:13 am to BugAC
So after debate with kingbob, my conclusions are this.
I have no idea anymore how i feel about this. The pessimist in me thinks this will lead to a more powerful, America funded, communist regime. The optimist hopes the free market takes control and leads to a new government.
I really don't think anyone here can have a clear understanding of what this will lead to. I just hope this debate got people thinking past cigars and casinos.
I have no idea anymore how i feel about this. The pessimist in me thinks this will lead to a more powerful, America funded, communist regime. The optimist hopes the free market takes control and leads to a new government.
I really don't think anyone here can have a clear understanding of what this will lead to. I just hope this debate got people thinking past cigars and casinos.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:14 am to Scruffy
It's amazing really......
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:15 am to BugAC
quote:
I really don't think anyone here can have a clear understanding of what this will lead to. I just hope this debate got people thinking past cigars and casinos.
I agree. All I can say is, god bless America, let freedom ring.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:16 am to rbdallas
Step away from the ledge. You are irrational on this. You are too invested.
Every thing is a conspiracy.
Every thing is a conspiracy.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:20 am to Sid in Lakeshore
Well, in this case, he's not wrong 
The difference is, that I don't think the end result will be what he thinks it will be. The Castros are dying, and Communism will die with them. I think Raul sees this as a last-ditch effort to save his regime. If they can come out of this looking like the good guys, then they can maintain power as communism is crushed by economics. If he fails to maintain the Castro regime, then at least he looks more like a compassionate ruler than a dictator, more of a Gorbechov than a Stalin. He will be remembered as a pragmatist rather than a hard-liner.
Obama, on the other hand, gets a nice feather in his cap and a real accomplishment to put on his legacy resume. I have not agreed with Obama on much, but he's actually right about this one.
The difference is, that I don't think the end result will be what he thinks it will be. The Castros are dying, and Communism will die with them. I think Raul sees this as a last-ditch effort to save his regime. If they can come out of this looking like the good guys, then they can maintain power as communism is crushed by economics. If he fails to maintain the Castro regime, then at least he looks more like a compassionate ruler than a dictator, more of a Gorbechov than a Stalin. He will be remembered as a pragmatist rather than a hard-liner.
Obama, on the other hand, gets a nice feather in his cap and a real accomplishment to put on his legacy resume. I have not agreed with Obama on much, but he's actually right about this one.
This post was edited on 12/19/14 at 9:21 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:21 am to TOKEN
Lets see if this new relationship will prompt the Justice Department to seek extradition of cop killer Joanne Chesimard. I'm betting it doesn't
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