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re: Cuba embargo to be lifted
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:10 pm to Blue Velvet
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:10 pm to Blue Velvet
I know there are few irate yahoos in this thread but most right-wing media I've browsed today has been shockingly OK with this move...
I don't think it's that controversial in the long run
I don't think it's that controversial in the long run
2
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:12 pm to KeyserSoze999
What happened to the USA not dealing with dictators and over throwing their governments? oh that's right...there isn't any oil in Cuba..carry on
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:17 pm to EmperorGout
quote:
I know there are few irate yahoos in this thread but most right-wing media I've browsed today has been shockingly OK with this move...
I don't think it's that controversial in the long run
Exactly. Most sensible conservatives, and really people, want a united economy in the world. It's the reason why China and Japan haven't gone to war recently, it's the reason why the US and Russia have been on ok terms, and it's the reason why Germany hasn't invaded France recently. If one person fricks with someone, then the whole system is fricked. Yes we don't like the Chinese necessarily, but the fact that our economies are totally interlocked prevents war.
Can anyone else not see this opportunity with Cuba? Really, Cubans aren't all that different from other Latin American countries. In fact, we used to be very close with them, since they're literally on our front porch. Improving relations with one of our closest neighbors is only a good thing, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and set in a Cold War mindset.
This post was edited on 12/17/14 at 9:20 pm
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:31 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
You sound pretty old and delusional.
I'm probably old, compared to you, I'm also a realist.
quote:
Oh yeah, because continuing war with China was obviously the way to go
We used China against the USSR. We were not in a hot war with China when Nixon normalized relations with them. We got something out of that deal. That's how it works.
quote:!
Cuba into the modern world and forge an alliance that will make both countries stronger as a whole
Now who's being delusional. It is not in the national interest to be propping up an hostile dictatorship 90 miles away from our shore.
Foreign relations is messy. It takes work. What we've done is make it easier for the Castros and their successors to hold on to power, and to continue to cause problems for us.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:34 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Stop with that nonsense! War, Baby, War! frick uniting the globe into a global economy to where people are highly unlikely to bomb and frick with their investors!
Nobody is calling for war. But if you think that we are dealing with peace loving rulers who want to deal honestly with the US, then you are sadly mistaken.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:38 pm to EmperorGout
quote:
Let me dumb it down a shade: both of the Castros will most likely be dead within 5 years. We will be Walmarting the frick out of that island within a decade.
Right.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:39 pm to redandright
quote:
I'm probably old, compared to you, I'm also a realist.
You're a lot of things, but you're not a realist. A realist would encourage a united economy, and not one of division.
quote:
We used China against the USSR. We were not in a hot war with China when Nixon normalized relations with them. We got something out of that deal. That's how it works.
Oh yeah, so just because we're not getting something quite as good as that relationship, we should let one of our closest neighbor's economy be stagnant for something that happened over 50 years ago! Let's hold those old hostilities like the Hatfields and McCoys. frick repairing damaged relationships!
quote:
Now who's being delusional.
Certainly not me.
quote:
It is not in the national interest to be propping up an hostile dictatorship 90 miles away from our shore.
Hey, this may be news to you, but it's almost 2015. It's not 1965. Castro is out of power and will likely be dead soon.
quote:
Foreign relations is messy. It takes work. What we've done is make it easier for the Castros and their successors to hold on to power, and to continue to cause problems for us.
As I said, it will be 2015 2 weeks from today. I'm very happy to awaken you from your time capsule, but things have changed.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:40 pm to EmperorGout
quote:
We will be Walmarting the frick out of that island within a decade.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:40 pm to redandright
quote:
Nobody is calling for war. But if you think that we are dealing with peace loving rulers who want to deal honestly with the US, then you are sadly mistaken.
Yeah, frick those Soviet assholes! frick those Maoist dicks! We don't want anything to do with them! They can't do anything for us! They're our enemies!
Are you really too stupid to get the concept that despite having hostilities with another country that economies with mutual interests tent to not invade each other? Seems to have worked out pretty well with China and Russia, and Cuba is absolutely no threat to us. Why shouldn't we open the economy to them like we have the Russians and the Chinese? Anything besides your mind being stuck in the 60s thinking Communists are around every corner trying to kill us?
This post was edited on 12/17/14 at 9:44 pm
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:46 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Have you forgotten that China was under the most brutal dictatorship of the 20th Century, even worse than Stalin and Hitler? This will take time. The more America invests in Cuba, the more progressive they will become
The severity of the regimes has nothing to do with anything. China didn't wake up out of the communist nightmare because America threw money at them and reached out with some gay fricking made for TV olive branch circle jerk. They were failing miserably, changed their system to allow for trade and other capitalistic ideals, and THEN they began to prosper. America helped, but really, only to outsource jobs and take advantage of their cheap labor. Great for them. Not so much for us.
But Cuba won't ever get to that point, because we are bailing them out, and in the nick of time, too, as their Russian and Venezuelan big brothers were running out of resources to give them. It's a crappy welfare state that relies on the resources of others to achieve anything above bare minimum survival, and we just became their new daddy. That's all that happened today. I'm sure their corrupt, fat pice of shite government officials are overjoyed, but the other 99% of them still have no hope and no way to make a better life.
American products? Maybe if they were allowed into the fricking country, they'd like them. Let me know when that happens. Of course, some of the starry-eyed dipshits in this thread wouldn't like that very much either.
quote:
Please give me a reason besides Louisiana's sugar industry and the retarded assumption Cuba isn't going to change?
Give me a reason for them to change now. They used to have one. Now they don't. That's the point you keep missing. The sugar industry is just one small aspect of a larger argument.
quote:
Sorry if it seems like a pretty good place to invest for anyone outside of the sugar industry.
Great. Let me know when we are allowed to invest there and I'll jump on board.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:49 pm to UL-SabanRival
quote:
UL-SabanRival
Hey, Suger Tard is back. You really are adorable trying to talk politics you know nothing about.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 9:56 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:No, you dumb bitch. I didn't say the us opened up relations. I actually denied that relations had anything to do with anything. Their economy was a joke until relatively recently. It was their own changes in policy that allowed for them to become prosperous.
Are you 12? China did nothing to open up relations with the US. This man did.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:00 pm to UL-SabanRival
quote:
No, you dumb bitch.
You don't know diddly dick about China. Please shut the frick up while you're behind as you laughably try to rationalize why bringing China to the modern world was easier than bringing Cuba into it.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:06 pm to EmperorGout
quote:
most right-wing media I've browsed today has been shockingly OK with this move...
I don't know who you listen to, but the conservative media has been trashing this all day.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:11 pm to OMLandshark
Your vague, childlike notions don't constitute an argument. It's cute and all, but it ignores reality in favor of some idealistic imagining of what might happen instead of what has happened.
Maybe you can finally answer the question. How are you or any other theoretical investors going to invest when you're not allowed to?
Maybe you can finally answer the question. How are you or any other theoretical investors going to invest when you're not allowed to?
This post was edited on 12/17/14 at 10:15 pm
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:15 pm to UL-SabanRival
quote:
Your vague, childlike notions don't constitute an argument. It's cut and all, but it ignores reality on favor of some idealistic imagining of what might happen instead of what has happened.
I'm actually pretty accepting of reality, but you only choose to see it as it was in the 60s. There is no reasoning with you and your self centered bullshite.
quote:
Maybe you can finally answer the question. How are you or any other theoretical investors going to invest when you're not allowed to?
Because it's going to change like it did in both China and Russia. That's how the free market works. I'm sure you can enroll in Econ 101 at a local college of you'd like more details.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:22 pm to KeyserSoze999
My family wants our land back. The communist owe us aprox. $80 million and we have the deeds to prove it.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:28 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
but you only choose to see it as it was in the 60s.
No, I see it as it is in 2014, a Cuba that has not changed a single thing about its governmental and economic structure and policies and which has given no indication that they are anywhere close to doing so in the future.
quote:
Because it's going to change like it did in both China and Russia. That's how the free market works. I'm sure you can enroll in Econ 101 at a local college of you'd like more details.
Again, I didn't ask you how you imagine it might unfold in the future. We have two bit carny sideshow people for that. I asked you what current policies are going to allow for the investments you seem to think will now happen. Furthermore, what is it about the current move by the USA that you believe will lead to the internal changes you imagine will happen?
quote:
That's how the free market works.
Great. Let me know when Cuba gets a free market. They don't have one now.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:43 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Congress should demand that we get something in return and block this action until we receive some concession, even if it's only symbolic. That way we don't project weakness and we don't reward a dictatorship for digging in its heels and refusing to change.
I really don't know whether I agree with you or not.
In these days, as we approach the 16th* year of the Twenty-First Century, I lean towards total embargo lift.
BEFORE LIFTING, I would require talks with Cuba letting them know that giving military-related assistance to North Korea and letting Russia build giant listening posts near Havana are non-starters.
If we are going to have China-like relations with Cuba, then, Cuba's got to act less like an enemy.
I would like to hear Cuba's response to these requirements. I'd let them know that any future US administration/Congress could re-establish the embargo should Cuba insist on acting like an enemy of the USA.
That goes both ways, so, I'd take steps towards the USA not acting badly towards Cuba.
* The year 2000 was the first year of the 21st Century.
Posted on 12/17/14 at 10:54 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Can anyone else not see this opportunity with Cuba? Really, Cubans aren't all that different from other Latin American countries. In fact, we used to be very close with them, since they're literally on our front porch. Improving relations with one of our closest neighbors is only a good thing, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and set in a Cold War mindset.
It's not as simple at that, and, this move is somewhat of a gamble. It's not a sure bet that all will be rosy.
It will be up to the Republican Congress to pass legislation to lift the embargo.
As I stated in my previous post, there should be some conditions attached to the embargo lifting -- namely, no more military assistance to North Korea and no Russian military or intelligence-gathering bases in Cuba.
We can make it clear that the USA will no longer engage in any covert or overt operations designed to overthrow the Castro Regime. In return, Cuba stops acting like an enemy of the USA. After those terms are met and demonstrated, Congress lifts the embargo.
We can't have better relations with Cuba until both Cuba and the USA stop acting like mutual enemies.
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