- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
CIA Torture and interrogation in general. I'm very saddened by how WE THE PEOPLE
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:29 am
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:29 am
are reacting to it and picking sides.
I'm saddened that this issue is being framed entirely as right vs left and hence, most people are just choosing their side.
I mean hell, I think it's probably reasonable to say that the following two things are true.
1)Our intel agencies, if they are to do their job well, will probably have to do some things we are uncomfortable with and keep them secret.
BUT
2)The reality of #1 has a high propensity to end up with intel agencies that take the reality of #1 to an absurd extreme.
Hence, it's an exceedingly challenging balance.
The arguments from people that basically want us to always ask nicely and from those who basically thing ANYTHING is OK to protect us are both silly.
I'm saddened that this issue is being framed entirely as right vs left and hence, most people are just choosing their side.
I mean hell, I think it's probably reasonable to say that the following two things are true.
1)Our intel agencies, if they are to do their job well, will probably have to do some things we are uncomfortable with and keep them secret.
BUT
2)The reality of #1 has a high propensity to end up with intel agencies that take the reality of #1 to an absurd extreme.
Hence, it's an exceedingly challenging balance.
The arguments from people that basically want us to always ask nicely and from those who basically thing ANYTHING is OK to protect us are both silly.
10
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:31 am to ShortyRob
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:31 am to ShortyRob
quote:
The arguments from people that basically want us to always ask nicely and from those who basically thing ANYTHING is OK to protect us are both silly.
So there are the two extremes, justifiably so. Now, where do we set the goalposts? That is where the problem is imo.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:35 am to ShortyRob
quote:
I'm very saddened by how WE THE PEOPLE
are reacting to it and picking sides.
Aside from a very few, I've actually seen some thoughtful substantive exchanges on the issue. I don't think it's a "left vs. right" thing at all--aside from some questioning the timing of the release.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:36 am to ShortyRob
It's a necessary evil.
If we stop one attack, it's worth it.
If we stop one attack, it's worth it.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:37 am to Homesick Tiger
quote:Ya know, I think the vast majority of Americans know basically where they would set the posts.
Now, where do we set the goalposts? That is where the problem is imo
The challenge is the "secret" element of #1.
Human nature being what it is, if you tell a person "here are your limits but, whatever you do will remain secret", those limits pretty much are guaranteed to be busted.
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that because our politics has becomes such a game, we can't trust congress to oversee.
It wouldn't be perfect, but if the intel committees had FULL access to EVERYTHING the intel agencies do and oversaw the shite without leaking every time it proved beneficial politically, we could probably keep this stuff under better control.
Of course, the corollary to that is that absent leaking, you always have one side willing to look the other way when shite happens under their president.
Bottom line? I think this intel problem is simply a symptom or a larger political problem.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:38 am to Navytiger74
quote:Well, to throw darts at "my side" for a moment, I sure see a lot of people who basically want to dismiss it due to who it came from.
Aside from a very few, I've actually seen some thoughtful substantive exchanges on the issue. I don't think it's a "left vs. right" thing at all--aside from some questioning the timing of the release.
And hey, I think it was political how it was released but I'm still not getting on board with the "whatever it takes" mentality coming from some on "my side".
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:39 am to ShortyRob
I agree with you, Shorty, but as is so often the case these days, the report was issued in a way that makes it easy to attack. Not bipartisan, probably didn't interview the right people, etc. No one seems to be "rising above" in the current political climate and I find it depressing.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:41 am to Dan Bilzerian
The problem is how de we quantify whether it stopped an attack? There's really no way of knowing, so I think that've a horrible justification for a horrible act.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:41 am to Dan Bilzerian
quote:
It's a necessary evil.
If we stop one attack, it's worth it.
This. If it saves one single life, it's worth it.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:44 am to N.O. via West-Cal
The report is absolutely politically motivated, and that's an issue, but what it revealed is troublesome. Most anyone that was paying attention knew we were torturing prisoners, so the meat of the report shouldn't be that surprising, except for maybe the extent of it. That is if we're to believe the report.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 9:50 am to ShortyRob
quote:
I'm saddened that this issue is being framed entirely as right vs left
You're right. Let me reach across the aisle to my esteemed libtard moonbat Senator colleague from NY.
When you're in the foxhole, it's a very different deal.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 11:02 am to The Spleen
"The report is absolutely politically motivated, and that's an issue, but what it revealed is troublesome. Most anyone that was paying attention knew we were torturing prisoners, so the meat of the report shouldn't be that surprising, except for maybe the extent of it."
I could not agree more.
On a slightly different note, I really don't think all of this should be public which is odd for me because I normally favor transparency. However, this stuff affects national security. Congressional briefings and general policy statements - even disapproving what happened in the Bush/Cheney years - but why we just give this sort of information to the enemy ... Although I view the issue as brutally difficult, I do not want the US to engage in torture, but I am dismayed by the self-flagellation.
I could not agree more.
On a slightly different note, I really don't think all of this should be public which is odd for me because I normally favor transparency. However, this stuff affects national security. Congressional briefings and general policy statements - even disapproving what happened in the Bush/Cheney years - but why we just give this sort of information to the enemy ... Although I view the issue as brutally difficult, I do not want the US to engage in torture, but I am dismayed by the self-flagellation.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 11:29 am to ShortyRob
quote:
1)Our intel agencies, if they are to do their job well, will probably have to do some things we are uncomfortable with and keep them secret.
You have to have honorable people to accomplish this without abuse.
Where do you find honorable people that are willing to do this?
Posted on 12/11/14 at 11:32 am to ShortyRob
I'm not picking sides. I disapprove of some of the things that Obama has done just as much as I disapprove of W's actions.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 11:49 am to The Spleen
I don't see Water Boarding as torture.
But I would approve off torturing anyone from any off these counties if we even suspected that they had knowledge of an imminent attack.
Liberals (not all libs on this subject mixed bag for sure ) and some conservatives act as if these Muslim countries, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Saudies, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya etc. all, haven't allowed these terrorist to operate freely with knowledge of who they are and where they live. They have encouraged these groups, supported them monetarily.
They all have blood on their hands, and only dimwits don't understand this.
Every Muslim country is responsible for the rise of Muslim fanatical terrorist groups.
So every captured foreign fighter is a worthy target in my eyes, they have ZERO MORALS, and should be treated in a likewise manner.
But I would approve off torturing anyone from any off these counties if we even suspected that they had knowledge of an imminent attack.
Liberals (not all libs on this subject mixed bag for sure ) and some conservatives act as if these Muslim countries, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Saudies, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya etc. all, haven't allowed these terrorist to operate freely with knowledge of who they are and where they live. They have encouraged these groups, supported them monetarily.
They all have blood on their hands, and only dimwits don't understand this.
Every Muslim country is responsible for the rise of Muslim fanatical terrorist groups.
So every captured foreign fighter is a worthy target in my eyes, they have ZERO MORALS, and should be treated in a likewise manner.
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 11:52 am
Posted on 12/11/14 at 11:55 am to S.E.C. Crazy
I see it totally as torture. As such as Americans we should be disgusted by this. But as one who lives 8 miles from the World Trace Center and looked out his son's window at the lights every night when he was little, I don't know. Sheikh Rahman also comes to mind as his office is 5 blocks from where ny son's girl friend lives now. Too close to home and it has me conflicted.
I don't see it as a right/left discussion. How can it? Senator McCain is against it 100% as he has been there. He certainly is on the right.
Ty sitting on your back porch watching the big black cloud in the distance and your kids asking you why? Try knowing your neighbor across the street was killed in the Towers as were other people in the neighborhood. it makes you want to strike back.
I don't see it as a right/left discussion. How can it? Senator McCain is against it 100% as he has been there. He certainly is on the right.
Ty sitting on your back porch watching the big black cloud in the distance and your kids asking you why? Try knowing your neighbor across the street was killed in the Towers as were other people in the neighborhood. it makes you want to strike back.
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 12/11/14 at 11:58 am to The Spleen
quote:
The report is absolutely politically motivated, and that's an issue, but what it revealed is troublesome. Most anyone that was paying attention knew we were torturing prisoners, so the meat of the report shouldn't be that surprising, except for maybe the extent of it. That is if we're to believe the report.
what isn't politically motivated? You think the use of torture was done for non political purposes? it wasn't. It was to achieve a purely political goal - defeating "terrorists"
the report was a bit of a yawn to me, it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know - our gov't has zero respect for the principles our country was founded on.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 12:01 pm to Hawkeye95
Hawkeye is right. Is this the most un American thing we can think of? Then for Cheney to deny it and then say so what? I don't blame President Bush at all
Posted on 12/11/14 at 12:54 pm to JEAUXBLEAUX
quote:
I see it totally as torture.
"totally"? You don't see how there is a line and perhaps waterboarding straddles that?
I mean, no permanent damage is done. It is quite risky if the correct technique is not used, but it isn't the same as burning, cutting, flaying, pulling out fingernails, mutilation, etc., things are are unquestionably torture, wouldn't you agree?
I view it as an extreme form of environmental stress. Some view it is as a mock execution and I respect, but disagree with that assessment.
JB - what are you views on other enhanced techniques?
Sleep deprivation? Forced physical activity? Long periods without food or water? Extreme environments of hot or cold?
Are those torture?
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 12:55 pm
Page 1 of 3
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News