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Message
re: Has Israel ever started a round of hostilities?
Posted on 11/18/14 at 10:41 pm to Lsupimp
Posted on 11/18/14 at 10:41 pm to Lsupimp
USS Liberty
dual citizen Israeli settlers? Not my problem.
Nutjobs? I would say "American" Israel firsters whos blind allegiance to a foreign government that has repeatedly shown it hold no allegiance to the United States or any other government after decades of subsidies and political support are the nutjobs younare thinking of.
For what its worth, Palestine isnt my problem either. You wont find me crying tears over Israelis or Palestinians. Maybe that is how I can hold a reasonable perspective on the situation.
quote:
Three AMERICANS get sliced to death in a blood orgy in Jerusalem by Palestinian murderers.
dual citizen Israeli settlers? Not my problem.
quote:
Nutjobs on Western message boards around the globe line up ten deep to nonsensically place the blame on Israel with the same worn out slogans from 1975. "Zionist usurpers"," apartheid military dictatorship". It's the game.
Nutjobs? I would say "American" Israel firsters whos blind allegiance to a foreign government that has repeatedly shown it hold no allegiance to the United States or any other government after decades of subsidies and political support are the nutjobs younare thinking of.
For what its worth, Palestine isnt my problem either. You wont find me crying tears over Israelis or Palestinians. Maybe that is how I can hold a reasonable perspective on the situation.
1
Posted on 11/18/14 at 10:43 pm to MrCarton
Good luck with all that....
Posted on 11/18/14 at 10:45 pm to Lsupimp
quote:
Good luck with all that....
Luck wont be necessary.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 7:45 am to SirWinston
Creation of Israel & expelling Palestinians from their land through murder & terror?
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:24 am to MrCarton
Why are none of the bleeding hearts saying anything about the housing that the Egyptians are bulldozing?
Posted on 11/19/14 at 4:44 pm to bamarep
quote:
Why are none of the bleeding hearts saying anything about the housing that the Egyptians are bulldozing?
I don't know. Why are you asking me this?
I think something like 30 Egyptian military members have been killed in recent terrorist attacks. Not surprising really. The Egyptians are obviously not on the best of terms with most sunni extremists.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 4:51 pm to bamarep
quote:Does Egypt get its own dickriding thread every week where someone confidently asserts that Egypt is the Most Moral Country that has never done anything wrong? If it did, I would probably say more about it. But I think everyone here is perfectly aware al-Sisi is a tPOS.
Why are none of the bleeding hearts saying anything about the housing that the Egyptians are bulldozing?
Posted on 11/19/14 at 5:02 pm to Iosh
quote:
Does Egypt get its own dickriding thread every week where someone confidently asserts that Egypt is the Most Moral Country that has never done anything wrong?
this.
Actually Egypt has beem America's most reliable asset in the region for 40 years. They take the money and comply with the conditions. Israel is the opposite of compliant and despite massive aid, they steal, spy and cajole the US into conflicts and use their relationship with the US as leverage. Our return on Investment with Israel is miniscule in the good years and well into the negatives in the bad years (most of them).
I could really care less about Palestinians except that the US is associated with everything Israel does and that association has played a role in undermining national security.
That being said, i do have several Palestinian/American friends and they are great people who cook some good arse food. I just dont have enough care in me for the whole planet.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 5:10 pm to sugar71
quote:
Creation of Israel & expelling Palestinians from their land through murder & terror?
Well pack your shite and give it to the Native Americans, bro
Posted on 11/19/14 at 5:30 pm to SirWinston
quote:
Now they will (justifiably) avenge those deaths
By your logic I should be free to kill all drivers because my sister died in a car accident?
That is the problem here, not that the Israelis' are responding it's that their response is shelling civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. If you are unable to discern why this is wrong then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 7:30 pm to MrCarton
quote:
Israel is the opposite of compliant and despite massive aid, they steal, spy and cajole the US into conflicts and use their relationship with the US as leverage. Our return on Investment with Israel is miniscule in the good years and well into the negatives in the bad years (most of them).
Return on investment? Name a few countries who we give aid to that actually do sh*t for us in return.
quote:
Actually Egypt has beem America's most reliable asset in the region for 40 years
Why don't you ask Anwar Sadat how that worked out for him. I'm sure after that, none of the other nations leaders would THINK about peace with Israel, not that they were before Sadat was assassinated anyway.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 7:33 pm to SirWinston
Rome never fought an offensive war either.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:02 pm to GeauxLSUGeaux
quote:
Return on investment? Name a few countries who we give aid to that actually do sh*t for us in return.
You seem pretty stupid, so I will keep this brief.
Almost every country to whom we give aid abides our quid quo pro agreement. In the ME this includes Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt and many others to varying degrees. It does not include Israel. They act independently of American interests while cashing our checks, mostly because morons, such as yourself, haven't yet realized that Israeli interests have nothing in common with American interests. They hold all the leverage in the relationship.
quote:
Why don't you ask Anwar Sadat how that worked out for him. I'm sure after that, none of the other nations leaders would THINK about peace with Israel, not that they were before Sadat was assassinated anyway.
Sadaat held power for around 11 years, then 8 days after his assassination, our man Hosni Mubarak maintained the entire Egyptian region for around 30 years, giving Egypt 40 continuous years of prosperity while also managing to avoid all out warfare with its regional rival Israel.
I would say the USGOV made a pretty good investment in both Sadaat and Mubarak.
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:19 pm to MrCarton
quote:
You seem pretty stupid, so I will keep this brief.
You have zero clue about foreign relations in the Middle East. Please refrain from calling anyone stupid because you are throwing stones in a glass house.
The fact is, Saudi Arabia has done more for the U.S. in the Middle East than Egypt has ever done for us. Saudi Arabia has also done a lot more harm to the U.S. than Israel has ever done.
Your perception is skewed and the fact that you have a few Palestinian friends is a real :CSB:
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:23 pm to SirWinston
quote:no, and I love how their PM doesn't take any shite!!
has Israel ever started this shite?
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:49 pm to GeauxLSUGeaux
quote:
You have zero clue about foreign relations in the Middle East. Please refrain from calling anyone stupid because you are throwing stones in a glass house.
I do have at least some clue. I have traveled to just about every country involved in this conversation under congressionally approved programs. I have a firm understanding of whats is going on in the region and the intent of said programs. I spent the majority of my life working in the ME and have a solid grasp of the USGOVs level of influence in the region. The fact remains that our dollars to leverage ratio in Israel is the most unbalanced investment we have in the ME, and probably the world.
quote:
The fact is, Saudi Arabia has done more for the U.S. in the Middle East than Egypt has ever done for us. Saudi Arabia has also done a lot more harm to the U.S. than Israel has ever done.
I am well aware of our relationship with Saudi. I wasn't comparing Saudi with Egypt.
quote:
Your perception is skewed and the fact that you have a few Palestinian friends is a real :CSB:
Everyone's perception is skewed, but mine isn't skewed because I know a few people who can make awesome food. Yeah, CSB, I got it.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 8:52 pm
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:51 pm to MrCarton
quote:I don't think you can use the present tense here any more, not with al-Sisi. He's a lot closer to Israel than he is to us.
Actually Egypt has beem America's most reliable asset in the region for 40 years. They take the money and comply with the conditions.
Israel as a whole appears to be thinking long-term and is making diplomatic inroads with the Sunni autocrat axis (which I'll loosely define as Egypt, Saudi, UAE, and Jordan) as a hedge for when the West finally cuts bait.
This is thinking very long-term, as while I'm sure State already realizes this, I expect they'll get another generation of free support out of pure inertia among the US populace (and Congress especially). But our strategic interests don't really align any more.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 8:56 pm
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:53 pm to Iosh
quote:
I don't think you can use the present tense here any more, not with al-Sisi. He's a lot closer to Israel than he is to us.
I disagree. In recent history the key to leverage in Egypt has been through the military and that doorway has become considerably wider in the last 2 years.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 8:54 pm
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:58 pm to MrCarton
quote:In what sense? My impression is that we gently froze Mubarak out, and started trying to make inroads with Morsi when he came to power (assuming, incorrectly, that they wouldn't immediately frick things up), only to be caught flat-footed by the coup and now the Egyptian military doesn't trust us any more.
In recent history the key to leverage in Egypt has been through the military and that doorway has become considerably wider in the last 2 years.
If I'm misreading any of this, feel free to correct me. But everything I heard during Protective Edge was that Egypt was more or less freezing us out at every opportunity. And the state media under al-Sisi has been taking giant shits on us at every opportunity, which is alarming as Egyptian media has a much wider pan-Arab influence.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 9:02 pm
Posted on 11/19/14 at 9:16 pm to Iosh
quote:
In what sense? My impression is that we gently froze Mubarak out, and started trying to make inroads with Morsi when he came to power (assuming, incorrectly, that they wouldn't immediately frick things up), only to be caught flat-footed by the coup and now the Egyptian military doesn't trust us any more.
If I'm misreading any of this, feel free to correct me. But everything I heard during Protective Edge was that Egypt was more or less freezing us out at every opportunity. And the state media under al-Sisi has been taking giant shits on us at every opportunity
The US definitely froze Hosni out. A couple of options existed:
1. Back Hosni, who's credibility was possibly beyond salvaging
2. Foster US credibility and influence in the Egyptian populace by not backing Hosni and give the USGOV a prayer in hell at having some influence over the successors.
In the end we froze out Hosni, most likely because no matter the successor DOS and DOD always have an in through military cooperation. That gamble has worked out so far which was predictable according to recent history.
I could go on and on about this, but anyone who wants to review the congressionally authorized programs in Egypt since the ouster of Mubarak can see that our major inroads have come through our military. The USGOV is contributing actively in the stability of the Egyptian GOV through the security sector and in exchange it has earned some leverage and situational awareness. I expect the payoff to grow rapidly in the coming years.
ETA: The military in Egypt has been the final arbiters for a long time. The succession of leadership has been closely tied to the Egyptian military and that requires fostering confidence in the military among the populace. During the ouster it is notable that the Egyptian military was not significantly threatened by the populace and there is very little evidence that it was ever so unstable that it couldn't fulfill its role as a stabilizing force. The USGOV knows this, and has probably reckoned that significant inroads in the Egyptian GOV go through the Egyptian Military.
I fully expect sisi to take giant dumps on the US publicly, but behind closed doors he isn't exactly turning down help.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 9:28 pm
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