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Message
re: Pope Francis endorses evolution and big bang
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:23 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:23 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
It's a fact in semantics only
Semantics are often important.
quote:
The early Christians believed what the catholic church believes.
In some areas that is true, in others it is not. Even the most devout Catholic will admit that doctrine has changed in the past two thousand years.
quote:
If the early Christians walked, talked, worshipped and believed as catholics believe today
We know for a fact that they didn't. Again, even the most devout Catholic in this thread has admitted that they started out worshiping in synagogues and moved into small homes when persecution began. There was no hierarchy or central authority.
1
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:23 pm to TN Bhoy
Dp
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:25 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:23 pm to TN Bhoy
I've read a lot of history books. I had to Google patristics. 
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:36 pm to TK421
quote:
Even the most devout Catholic will admit that doctrine has changed in the past two thousand years.
Doctrine has never changed. That's why it's called doctrine. Once that doctrine was put into place it remained the same all the way to the present day.
quote:
Again, even the most devout Catholic in this thread has admitted that they started out worshiping in synagogues and moved into small homes when persecution began.
Which is nothing but semantics. Everyone knows the leaders in the early Church were Jews before they were Christians.
quote:
There was no hierarchy or central authority.
Not true at all. The Apostles were the central authority ("As the Father sent me, I now send you..."), and Peter was at the head of the Apostles (The Rock, The Keys, Binding and Loosing). The men who succeeded the Apostles (the bishops) carried on their authority to teach and, as the canon developed, interpret scripture.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:37 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:43 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Doctrine has never changed. That's why it's called doctrine. Once that doctrine was put into place it remained the same all the way to the present day.
Catholic Church doctrine insist that no one is saved outside of the Catholic Church, so how does one jive this with the latest statements from the Pope that even atheists will be saved?
Pope Francis:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all."
"Outside the Church nobody will be saved. (Extra ecclesiam nemo salvatur)" (Origen, In Jesu Nave hom. 3,5)
"Outside the Church there is no salvation, thus membership in the Church is necessary." (Adam S. Miller, The Final Word, Tower of David Publications:Gaithersburg (1997), p. 16)
"Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and entire, he will without a doubt perish in eternity. . . This is the Catholic faith' unless everyone believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Denzinger 39, 30)
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:55 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 8:00 pm to Revelator
quote:
What's the point in gathering a council to canonize certain books of the bible and discount others if you only resort to embracing the other writings anyway at a later date?
because the canon of the Bible holds a-lot more authority than extra-biblical writings.
The Bible is the most important text when it comes to our doctrine, but when it comes to interpretation of those text you can bring in extra-biblical texts.
Someting Aquinas, Augustine, or even the Pope said, can never contradict what is said in the scriptures. So the Pope could never change the form of baptism. Because of the command of Christ to Baptize in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, the Pope can't change this it is set for life.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 8:51 pm to Revelator
quote:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all."
1) Explain to me how this goes against the Church's teaching concerning salvation outside of the Church. Christ's death and resurrection redeemed us all. Everyone knows this. It's what we do with that redemption Christ gave to each one of us, however, that counts.
2) Pope Francis said last year this exact quote: "Outside the Church there can be no salvation."
Once again, doctrine never changes.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 8:58 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 8:58 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
And besides, Francis said last year, and I quote, "Outside the Church there can be no salvation."
And atheists who are definitely outside the church and don't believe in Jesus' saving grace should be outside of salvation by the above statement. Yet Pope Francis said they could still be redeemed anyway. This is complete and utter contradiction.
And if he simply meant they could still be redeemed if they joined the church and embraced their doctrine he should have said so. He implied they could be redeemed apart from that and anyone who isn't steeped in Catholic magic would read in the same thing.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 9:02 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 9:01 pm to Revelator
Rev no salvation outside the Church doesn't mean, if you aren't Catholic you can't be saved. What it means is that Christ works through the Catholic Church for salvation and because of this outside of the Church there can be no salvation.
LINK
see the link. I'm not posting a new response.
LINK
see the link. I'm not posting a new response.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 9:39 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 9:02 pm to catholictigerfan
I'm not getting int his argument, if TNBhoy words are true that I could be ban for debating religion on here I don't want that.
Go Royals
Go Royals
Posted on 10/29/14 at 9:04 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
Rev no salvation outside the Church doesn't mean, if you aren't Catholic you can't be saved. What it means is that Christ works through the Catholic Church for salvation and because of this outside of the Church there can be no salvation.
This is " Doublespeak" which could have been pulled directly from Orwell's 1984.
So one can be saved outside of the Catholic Church but only if that salvation comes though the Catholic Church.
It's amazing how normally rational people will take wholly illogical positions if it pertains to defending the RCC!
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 9:16 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 9:26 pm to Revelator
If I had to guess the Pope, being a Jesuit, meant that mankind is redeemed through Christ. That does not mean that every individual that makes up mankind is saved. He means that anyone, through their free will, can accept the gift of salvation through Christ. I could be wrong of course.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 9:31 pm to dawg2357
quote:
If I had to guess the Pope, being a Jesuit, meant that mankind is redeemed through Christ. That does not mean that every individual that makes up mankind is saved. He means that anyone, through their free will, can accept the gift of salvation through Christ. I could be wrong of course.
You are absolutely right.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 9:41 pm to dawg2357
quote:
If I had to guess the Pope, being a Jesuit, meant that mankind is redeemed through Christ. That does not mean that every individual that makes up mankind is saved. He means that anyone, through their free will, can accept the gift of salvation through Christ. I could be wrong of course.
Well yes this is common Chrsitian orthodoxy, but that's not what he was insinuating. He made it appear that even atheists could be redeemed without believing or outside of faith in God.
What Francis is doing is the worse kind of pandering imaginable and should be ridiculed instead of lauded. He makes statements that are just vague enough to make the non Catholic embrace and love him, all the while knowing that according to Catholic doctrine the non Cathoic is considered a heritic and doomed to hell. Shamefull.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 9:57 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 10:17 pm to Revelator
quote:
Well yes this is common Chrsitian orthodoxy, but that's not what he was insinuating. He made it appear that even atheists could be redeemed without believing or outside of faith in God.
There is a difference between salvation and redemption. With Christ's death and resurrection everyone throughout the world in the first century, and all other centuries to follow, was redeemed. This redemption is available to all, atheists included. HOWEVER, the only way to salvation is belief in Jesus Christ through his Church on earth.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 10:22 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
There is a difference between salvation and redemption. With Christ's death and resurrection everyone throughout the world in the first century, and all other centuries to follow, was redeemed. This redemption is available to all, atheists included. HOWEVER, the only way to salvation is belief in Jesus Christ through his Church on earth.
Again, what he is doing is shameful pandering to endear himself to non Catholics. All the while knowing that those who aren't steeped in the speech of RCC code won't have a clue that he believes they are headed to hell despite the words coming out of his mouth.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 10:31 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 10:31 pm to Revelator
quote:
All the while knowing that those who aren't steeped in the speech of RCC code won't have a clue that they are headed to hell despite the words coming out of his mouth.
There is no code. It's not his fault you don't know the difference between salvation and redemption. And I'm pretty sure an atheist couldn't care less what Pope Francis has to say on the matter of salvation and redemption.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 10:37 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
There is no code. It's not his fault you don't know the difference between salvation and redemption. And I'm pretty sure an atheist couldn't care less what Pope Francis has to say on the matter of salvation and redemption.
I know the difference and I also know that Catholics speak in codes saying one thing and meaning something entirely different. They are as deceptive as possible and their entire theology is overly convoluted so only those at the seminary level understand the half of it.
I don't need a man in a funny hat to tell me about Jesus, redemption, salvation or any such thing. I've got the bible, the Holy Spirit and I can read. Scripture interprets scripture
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 10:46 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 10:48 pm to Revelator
quote:
I know the difference
If you know the difference then why did you go through the trouble to embarrass yourself in a botched "gotcha" moment?
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 10:49 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 11:38 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
If you know the difference then why did you go through the trouble to embarrass yourself in a botched "gotcha" moment?
I didn't try to set up any kind of gotcha moment. I simply posted the Pope in his own words against what his Church doctrine says.
Again, Catholic apologist like yourself can play both sides of a coin because there is a infinite amount of Catholic writings to draw from, each contradicting the other.
One shouldn't have to be a Seminary student to understand the complexities of his own religion.
Salvation is very simple and the bible is all one needs to know how to obtain it.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 11:40 pm
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