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re: Pope Francis endorses evolution and big bang
Posted on 10/29/14 at 6:58 pm to RollTide1987
Posted on 10/29/14 at 6:58 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
And yet the Fathers of the Protestant Church (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli) accepted Marian doctrine and defended it until their deaths. Protestants did not begin to reject Marian doctrine until around 1800 or so - nearly 300 years after the Reformation. So you're telling me that for 1,800 years or so, Christians got it wrong on Mary?
Most of those you listed like Luther grew up steeped in Catholic teaching and everyone they knew in the faith held to most of the same teachings. So it's understandable that even though they disagreed with the church on the matter of indulgences and such, that they would still cling to some of their former beliefs. It's doesn't make it scriptural however.
0
Posted on 10/29/14 at 6:59 pm to TK421
quote:
I said nothing of the sort.
Your claim is that the catholic church didn't exist at the time the biblical texts were written.
quote:
There is no evidence of anything remotely resembling the modern catholic church before it was made the official Roman religion.
The only way in which this is true is if the official church of Rome established by Constantine in the 4th century, and the one which exists today, do not represent the early Christians who wrote those books. If early Christians DID believe what the catholic church believes, then the church did exist from the time of Christ. You don't need cathedrals and robes and centralized establishments to be a catholic in belief.
It's ok to be wrong, it's even ok to be upset that you're wrong, but what isn't ok is playing possum and avoiding admission of your fault. The early church fathers were very, very catholic in belief.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:04 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 6:59 pm to Roger Klarvin
I want to know how the hell one bowl of porridge was "too hot" while another was "too cold"...YET, one bowl was "just right"?
How does THAT happen?
Mamma Bear cooks in mysterious ways?
bothers me
How does THAT happen?
Mamma Bear cooks in mysterious ways?
bothers me
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:06 pm to TK421
quote:
This is even more asinine. Jews were the first Christians and indeed practiced early Christianity in synagogues. The Pauline epistles make this abundantly clear.
Your inability to separate establishment from belief is your downfall here.
The early Christians were very catholic in doctrine. The church of Rome added centralized power to the equation, but Catholicism didn't just pop out of nowhere in the 4th century. Popes, bishops, etc. all existed prior to Constantine. A formal establishment of it all doesn't change what the early Christians practiced or believed.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:09 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:07 pm to TK421
quote:
There is no evidence of anything remotely resembling the modern catholic church before it was made the official Roman religion.
There is plenty of evidence. St. Ignatius and St. Irenaeus, writing in the second century, support the Real Presence in the Eucharist and also both lay out the hierarchy of the church. The primacy of the Church in Rome was also defined by the end of the second century and understood in the first century as Pope St. Clement I's Letter to the Corinthians (90 AD) tells us. St. Justin Martyr, also writing in the 2nd century, tells us about how Christians worship and describes the practices of that worship service. Guess what. His words describe the Catholic Mass that we know today to the letter.
These are only a few examples.
quote:
Jews were the first Christians and indeed practiced early Christianity in synagogues. The Pauline epistles make this abundantly clear.
This is very true. But by 40 AD they had stopped practicing in synagogues because they were being persecuted for their beliefs by the Jewish elders. And by 49 AD they had thrown off Judaism altogether by the decisions that came out of the Council of Jerusalem. The Gospels, however, only started being written around the year 60 AD. So...by the time Christians had abandoned Judaism altogether and created a religion of their own (Christianity/Catholicism), it would be a further 10 years before the first Gospels were written.
So yes. My point still stands. Catholicism is older than the Gospels.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:09 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
I want to know how the hell one bowl of porridge was "too hot" while another was "too cold"...YET, one bowl was "just right"?
That is what threw you off in that story?
I want to know how the hell 3 bears were able to own real estate.
It definitely is not cheap in our current environment and there is no way he could pay a note and survive off of foraging.
Not enough money in foraging.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:12 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:10 pm to RollTide1987
Thankfully someone here knows their history.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:11 pm to Scruffy
quote:
I want to know how the hell 3 bears were able to own real estate.
I figured the "bears" were hairy gay men.
Thus, real estate ownership is easily uderstood
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:11 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Your claim is that the catholic church didn't exist at the time the biblical texts were written.
I'm not claiming that; it is absolute fact. But that is very different than your previous statement. I know subtleties often elude you, but that is bad even by your standards.
quote:
The only way in which this is true is if the official church of Rome established by Constantine in the 4th century, and the one which exists today, do not represent the early Christians who wrote those books.
One has very little to do with the other. The central tenants of Christianity changed little throughout history, that doesn't mean Peter was "pope" in the way Francis is.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:12 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
Come on, you know gay men don't eat porridge.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:12 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The church of Rome added centralized power to the equation
There was centralized power from the beginning, it just became easier for that power to be enforced after Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, bringing the persecutions of Christians to an end.
Pope St. Clement I is the earliest example of a Bishop in Rome exercising this authority when he wrote to the Corinthians in 90 AD. At the time of this letter, St. John the Apostle was still alive and well and was the Bishop of Ephesus - a church located much closer to Corinth than Rome was. Yet the Corinthians appealed directly to Rome for an answer to the chaos that was sprouting up there at that time. Clement's response, now known to us as the Epistle of St. Clement, was revered by the Church in Corinth for many centuries, often read aloud at mass. It was so revered in fact it almost made it into the Bible.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:16 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:12 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
RollTide1987
Seriously, my last post in this thread so I don't succumb to the temptation and get banned (Patristics is seriously my job).
BUT, if you want to call yourself an historian, you seriously need to stop putting "AD" after the year. It goes before the date. BC after, AD before.
Ex.: The Council of Serdica was held in AD 343.
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:14 pm
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:13 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Come on, you know gay men don't eat porridge.
porridge would be a metaphor.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:13 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:14 pm to Scruffy
But, that makes the "too HOT" 'porridge' a bit frightening
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:15 pm to TN Bhoy
quote:
BUT, if you want to call yourself an historian, you seriously need to stop putting "AD" after the year. It goes before the date. BC after, AD before.
I just looked it up and you're right. I've read so many history books that use C.E. and B.C.E that I use their style and format to write down dates. I'll try getting into the habit of writing AD before the date.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:16 pm to TN Bhoy
Actually most historians use CE and BCE these days.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:18 pm to TK421
quote:
I'm not claiming that; it is absolute fact.
It's a fact in semantics only. The early Christians believed what the catholic church believes.
quote:
But that is very different than your previous statement.
No it isn't
quote:
One has very little to do with the other. The central tenants of Christianity changed little throughout history, that doesn't mean Peter was "pope" in the way Francis is.
It has everything to do with it. If the early Christians walked, talked, worshipped and believed as catholics believe today...well, if you want to say that isn't catholic then I'll leave you to your hole.
Posted on 10/29/14 at 7:19 pm to genro
quote:
Actually most historians use CE and BCE these days.
(Breaking my rule)
Not in Patristics.
And BCE/CE pisses me off. It is completely fricking idiotic.
If anyone wants to talk Patristics (tnbhoy@yahoo.com)
This post was edited on 10/29/14 at 7:20 pm
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